[PrimePorkchop]

So, as some of you might know (if you happened to read my post about some recently acquired AR500 steel targets for my range) me and my friend just purchased several nice AR500 steel targets for our gun range (he was given some land a little ways south of where we live, so we're putting some money into it so that one day it'll be a full fledged outdoor range)

anyways, I made a Facebook comment today for my friends just to express my jubilation that our latest shipment of targets arrived. And of course, like im sure all of you can attest, I have a friend who is the quintessential know-it-all...I love the guy, but he seriously is unable to admit when he's wrong =)

He responded with a simple "you're not SERIOUSLY shooting at a steel target are you?"

You can imagine how the conversation went, where im giving case after case about how, when handled properly (like with anything!) AR500 steel is safe and effective for firearm ranges and is not only recommended by the NRA, but is used in military and police training all over the world.

Well, of course, he posted silly youtube videos and "hey, this guy said this on a forum" links...basically it's like arguing with a gun grabber (he's not a gun grabber, he supports the 2nd, he just obviously doesn't know anything about steel targets)

Now, I'll admit, this is my first go, personally, with steel targets. I researched the hell out of it before I spent our hard earned money, but still, i'm no expert, nor am I pretending to be, I merely relayed all of my research to him, which, as of yet, has had any effect on his "opinion" of himself.

He posted this video from youtube and used it as "proof" that shooting steel targets can get you killed. *sigh* (personally, I believe this video is fake, there are several reasons I believe it so, I have a history in video editing and could very EASILY recreate this scenario given enough time and desire)


Most notably

Where's the target? Even if he set it out to 100 yards, with that wide angle, you should be able to see the target!

They NEVER ONCE show the damage to the head set that apparently flew off of his head. Not once, ever, no pictures, no video evidence, what so ever, that I can find - anywhere. If it were me, this would be the central focus of my video "holy ****, look what happened to my buddy!!!!"

When he picks up the headset, there is no apparent damage, what so ever, on the entire thing. Now, go to your gun safe, or wherever you keep yours, and put your head set on. See how tight that is? imagine if a rogue piece of lead was traveling at a high velocity and impacted your head set hard enough to "throw it" off of your head...do these guys seriously expect us to believe that the head set would remain in tact and completely undamaged?

There's a v shaped pattern of "dirt" from a camera that is positioned 100% perfectly and a increased whistling of something that, at least to me, sounds COMPLETELY recorded. (this is either an AMAZING coincidence that it all happened in this angled view, or it's staged, im going w/ the latter)

YouTube

YouTube

So im just looking for some additional "verbal ammunition" over the argument that will no doubt ensue tomorrow morning when he wakes up =)

Anyone who has experience that can talk about the safety, etc, just your general input, would be MOST appreciated =) ... who knows, maybe im wrong and Ar500 steel targets = certain death?

Thank you in advance!

[danf_fl]

Do a Bing search on "Steel Challenge videos".

He will see that not only is it allowed, but there are world wide competitions that use steel targets safely.

Safety is the key.
The U.S. Air Force allowed us to use steel targets on their shooting range after we demonstrated to the Base Safety Officer our procedures, safety measures, targets, and ammunition allowed.

[dog2000tj]

video is fake - the shooter uses his left hand to swat off the earmuffs prior to the "ricochet" hitting the ground at his front left then there is of course no evidence of actual damage in the video

I would be concerned shooting at a hardened steel target at close range (steel plate fixed to a solid backstop or similar).

[mountainman13]

It's perfectly safe but should be a hanging target, angled downward if possible and at 75 yards out or further for the AR. The likelihood of ricochet is slim and at that range even if it happens it won't make it back to you. For handguns it should be at 25 yards with cast bullets only.

[c3shooter]

Well, I must say- when I was at the range yesterday, I guess I was just lucky I did not go on the lane next door- they were shooting Steel Challenge match.

With all of the PINK BINK DINK CLINK that I could hear, that lane must have simply been AWASH in blood!

Oh, the HUMANITY!

[PrimePorkchop]

Originally Posted by dog2000tj

video if fake - the shooter uses his left hand to swat off the earmuffs prior to the "ricochet" hitting the ground at his front left then there is of course no evidence of actual damage in the video

I would be concerned shooting at a hardened steel target at close range (steel plate fixed to a solid backstop or similar).

To me, there's no doubt the video is fake. If a small piece of lead impacts a set of head gear hard enough to knock it off someone's head (those things are snug!) then it's going to shatter the plastic in the process.

As far as a BULLET ricocheting off a piece of metal and returning to its point of origin, the Myth Busters covered this already, it'd take 3 perfectly placed targets at precise angles in order to obtain the results.

And even then, the returning bullet only had enough force to "dent" the Styrofoam target.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/discovery/38569-mythbusters-triple-ricochet-video.htm

[mountainman13]

Don't be fooled by the mythbusters. It can and does happen. More likely at close range (under 10 yards). 98% of the time it won't come directly back it will be a bystander that takes the hit. The reason I give the restrictions I do is to avoid serious injury. At under 10 yards even a cast lead round can carry enough force to hurt but not penetrate. I have a buddy that took a 45 caliber cast ricochet to the forehead. It was like someone threw it at him. It stung and left a welt. At 25 yards it won't reach you and jacketed rounds expell less energy. They can travel much further after impact. The lead rounds 99% of the time just pancake and drop right infront of the target. (easy to recover and recast)

[PrimePorkchop]

Originally Posted by mountainman13

Don't be fooled by the mythbusters. It can and does happen. More likely at close range (under 10 yards). 98% of the time it won't come directly back it will be a bystander that takes the hit. The reason I give the restrictions I do is to avoid serious injury. At under 10 yards even a cast lead round can carry enough force to hurt but not penetrate. I have a buddy that took a 45 caliber cast ricochet to the forehead. It was like someone threw it at him. It stung and left a welt. At 25 yards it won't reach you and jacketed rounds expell less energy. They can travel much further after impact. The lead rounds 99% of the time just pancake and drop right infront of the target. (easy to recover and recast)

Okay, sorry about that, I was trying to type on my phone. What our conversation was originally about on Facebook was an actual ricochet...in other words, a projectile slamming into a flat surface then spinning around and coming right back at the shooter. This action is completely impossible =)

From what i've read so far...Lead splatter and casing splatter can definitely come flying back at you which is why, as you point out, you shoot from safe distances and wear eye protection...but even if these splatters hit you, it's not enough to kill you or even really severely injure you.

What that video with the .50 cal was leading us to believe is that the bullet hit the target then was returning with a vengeance...it just doesn't happen that way...now it could have been a shard of metal casing, but *if* that is what happened, then A.) He was Shooting WAY too close and B.) It would not have had significant force to throw those ear protectors off in such a dramatic manner =)

I use the mythbusters show because it used simple mathematics and a little physics to show that a true ricochet requires precise angles and even then for the bullet to return to its path it takes a triple ricochet...with 3 objects set up in precise placement and a bullet fired at an exact location to achieve desirable results =)

[mountainman13]

Yeah the only possible chance for it to even be similar is if he had put multiple shots in the exact same point and put a large dent in the steel and then happened to hit the dent perfectly on the side where it just happened to ricochet twice and basically pull a 180. Highly highly highly unlikely. That said shooting at a severely dented (over used) steel is not recommended. Lol

[JD1969]

Can't help with the issue at hand, but I'd love to come down and shoot sometime