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-   -   .357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f66/357-mag-10mm-gelatin-tests-92723/)

TylerDurden 06-23-2013 04:44 AM

.357 mag and 10mm gelatin tests
 
http://youtu.be/dy9tIABsauM

Underwood .357 158 gr Hex plated fired from 4" S&W Model 13 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0 fps, 3.1"

Impact velocity: (err)
Penetration: 27.5"
Retained weight: 157.7 gr
Expansion: None

A few notes on this one. It was overcast, making it difficult to get a good velocity reading. Underwood advertises 1,475 fps for this load and their claimed velocity is usually very close to actual. One shot curved and left the block on the bottom, the other came very close to exiting the block on the top. I cannot say for sure whether there was expansion on the shot that exited but based on the dramatically larger stretch cavity, I think it is likely. Nevertheless, this bullet is at least capable of failing to expand. Recoil was mild for a .357 mag.




http://youtu.be/3KbLafCnrH0

10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"

Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
Penetration: greater than 17.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.

Jagermeister 06-23-2013 08:26 AM

Thank you for the videos. The results are very interesting. Still, I doubt the two and four legged animals my ammo is designed for are made of gelatin though.:D I do trust the tests on pig carcasses. They are more scientific. Plus gelatin is totally different then fat, muscle and bone. Here is an interesting read.....

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm

Jagermeister 06-23-2013 09:14 AM

Here is a good pig to test on.....

http://news.yahoo.com/sex-offender-charged-fla-girls-death-195335625.html

TylerDurden 06-23-2013 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jagermeister (Post 1284090)
Thank you for the videos. The results are very interesting. Still, I doubt the two and four legged animals my ammo is designed for are made of gelatin though.:D I do trust the tests on pig carcasses. They are more scientific. Plus gelatin is totally different then fat, muscle and bone. Here is an interesting read.....

http://www.gunthorp.com/Terminal%20Ballistics%20as%20viewed%20in%20a%20mor gue.htm

This is a commonly held misconception. Properly calibrated gelatin actually IS remarkably consistent with human and porcine tissue.


"The IWBA published some of Gene Wolberg’s material from his study of San Diego PD officer involved
shootings that compared bullet performance in calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin with the autopsy
results using the same ammunition. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, he had
collected data on nearly 150 OIS incidents which showed the majority of the 9mm 147 gr bullets
fired by officers had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both
human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. Several other agencies with strong, scientifically based
ammunition terminal performance testing programs have conducted similar reviews of their shooting
incidents with much the same results--there is an extremely strong correlation between properly
conducted and interpreted 10% ordnance gelatin laboratory studies and the physiological effects of
projectiles in actual shooting incidents." - Dr. Roberts



"The test of the wound profiles validity is how accurately they portray the projectile-tissue
interaction observed in shots that penetrate the human body. Since most shots in the human body
traverse various tissues, we would expect the wound profiles to vary somewhat, depending on the
tissues traversed. However, the only radical departure has been found to occur when the
projectile strikes bone: this predictably deforms the bullet more than soft tissue, reducing its
overall penetration depth, and sometimes altering the angle of the projectile's course. Shots
traversing only soft tissues in humans have shown damage patterns of remarkably close
approximation to the wound profiles.

The bullet penetration depth comparison, as well as the similarity in bullet deformation and yaw
patterns, between human soft tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin have proven to be consistent and
reliable. Every time there appeared to be an inconsistency a good reason was found and when the
exact circumstances were matched, the results matched. The cases reported here comprise but a
small fraction of the documented comparisons which have established 10% ordnance gelatin as a
valid tissue simulant." - Dr. Fackler


That said, my own tests are less than scientific and shouldn't be taken as conclusive on their own.

JimRau 07-27-2013 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerDurden (Post 1283934)
.357 test video


Underwood .357 158 gr Hex plated fired from 4" S&W Model 13 through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0 fps, 3.1"

Impact velocity: (err)
Penetration: 27.5"
Retained weight: 157.7 gr
Expansion: None

A few notes on this one. It was overcast, making it difficult to get a good velocity reading. Underwood advertises 1,475 fps for this load and their claimed velocity is usually very close to actual. One shot curved and left the block on the bottom, the other came very close to exiting the block on the top. I cannot say for sure whether there was expansion on the shot that exited but based on the dramatically larger stretch cavity, I think it is likely. Nevertheless, this bullet is at least capable of failing to expand. Recoil was mild for a .357 mag.




10mm test video


10mm Atomic 180 gr Hex plated fired from 4.5" bbl EAA Witness through four layers of denim into calibrated gelatin.

BB calibration: 585.0, 3.1"

Impact velocity: 1,251 fps
Penetration: greater than 17.7"
Retained weight: N/A
Expansion: N/A

Both shots experienced significant fragmentation and deviated, exiting the side of the block.

Thank you! This is the same results I got. That is why you do not want a 158 gr bullet for SD in a 357 Mag. The 125 GR JHP is the way to go.:)

John_Deer 07-28-2013 12:17 AM

It's a nice test. But it really doesn't prove that much. Who uses FMJ ammo for SD in anything larger than a 9mm? I don't even buy 357 mag FMJ ammo for target practice. 357 mag SP ammo is usually pretty close to the same price as FMJ.

Anna_Purna 07-28-2013 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerDurden (Post 1284301)
This is a commonly held misconception. Properly calibrated gelatin actually IS remarkably consistent with human and porcine tissue.
......

And the bone???? ;)

Doc3402 07-28-2013 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anna_Purna (Post 1317494)
And the bone???? ;)

Good point. The fact of the matter is that ballistic gel is great for advertising purposes to compare one round to another, but it is next to worthless for predicting how a round will act on a human.

I have seen cold ones with multiple GSWs from the same box of ammo fired through the same gun that varied in penetration by at least a female's 6 inches.

I have seen rounds blow right through the chest and other rounds in the same person from the same box through the same gun not even penetrate the skin of a beer gut.

I've seen rounds follow a rib all the way around and exit through the skin at the back.

All of these things are impossible to predict with gel. If the author had said "soft tissue" I might come closer to believing it, but as it's written, it's bunk.

John_Deer 07-28-2013 01:45 PM

That must be an old test. I checked underwoods site to find that round. They don't even list it any longer. This is a real world test. I shot a deer in the chest with a 125 gr Fiocchi SP round. The bullet exited wight in front of the deer's hip. The Fiocchi SP penetrated around 34" of deer. The deer was about 15 yards from me when I took the shot. When I field dressed the deer it's lungs were trashed. The deer's diaphragm was split where the bullet passed through it. I used a Ruger Blackhawk with a 6.5" barrel to take the deer.

hardluk1 07-28-2013 02:08 PM

Is the term " HEX Plated" bullet reference to the a Rainer hex bullet? Not the normal speer or hornady jacked and bonded bullets underwood use's. Never looked at the rainer bullets as quality defence bullet. More for match use.


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