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-   -   What exactly were the Military Specifications did the 1911 have to meet back then???? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f57/what-exactly-were-military-specifications-did-1911-have-meet-back-then-48167/)

CAMCHAMPION1988 09-12-2011 08:31 AM

What exactly were the Military Specifications did the 1911 have to meet back then????
 
Just wondering what exactly were the specs that the 1911 had to meet for the Military all those years ago??? Exact details if you can.

Also i was reading through the manual of my Rock Island Armory M1911-A1FS Goverment .45 Standard Model. Never noticed this but It said the gun was designed for round nose/point ammo does that mean that Hollow Points won't feed them??? I haven't tried yet because ammo now is expensive especially .45acp HP'S.

Now i did have problems with it feeding in the beginning.feeding Remington 230gr FMJ and It was impossible for it to feed Winchester white box 180gr Square Top FMJ Rounds. But then i polished up the feed ramp with some Flitz and dremel felt wheel and i was able to feed the Square tops.

But just wondering any of you that own a RIA GI .45 had problems with it feeding hollow points when you first got it or no????

I always buy my Guns Brand new except for those that aren't produced anymore yes my RIA GI was bought brand new.

Thanks for your help.

danf_fl 09-12-2011 08:51 AM

Your RIA is a 11911a1, not the true 1911 model.

The problem encountered with the 180gr is probably going to happen with the HP. Many of the lower end 1911a1's (not a flame, but it is not a Colt or Ed Brown) need a mod done to the feed ramp and breech of the barrel (not recommended to be done by an unexperienced individual).

There have been praises and complaints on the RIA here in the forum. When you log in, do a search on "RIA" and you will see discussions.

CAMCHAMPION1988 09-12-2011 10:41 AM

You still didn't answer my question
 
You still didn't answer my question about what were the military specifications that the 1911 needed to be met for the military to accept it??? In details if you know them.

Yes i know the RIA is not a Ed brown or Colt.
After i bought this RIA M1911-A1FS i then bought a Colt M1911A1 GI Stainless and a Gold Cup. So don't think that that the RIA GI is my only 1911.

By the way if you think that the RIA M1911-A1FS is not a true 1911 just because the mainspring housing is a little differently shaped compared to the. Original Colt M1911A1 and because it says A1FS at the end of model number i hope you have some other reasons. Why you say it is not a true 1911 care to tell me???

I mean i know it is a Filipino Affordable copy but they are still pretty accurate and reliable And for the Price usually under $400 you can't go wrong. A guy at the range with a Kimber was telling me he had more problems with his Kimber than his RIA GI.

Firearms4ever 09-12-2011 11:10 AM

The original 1911 that was issued during WWI and in production until 1918 (I believe) had a flat mainspring housing, long trigger, very very small beavertail, very small sights, a good portion of the magazines had lanyard loops on them, and around the trigger guard the contouring of it was different from the 1911A1. The 1911A1 had a curved mainspring housing, short trigger, much larger beavertail, the sights were opened up some, the magazines no longer had lanyard loops on them, and the contouring around the trigger guard was different.

The Rock Island Armory's 1911A1's come with a mid range trigger instead of a short trigger, they have a flat mainspring housing whereas the A1 should have a curved one, the sights are very different from a replica or original A1, and the contouring is more like the original 1911. So the Rock Island Armory 1911's are more of a mixture of features from both the original 1911 and the 1911A1 instead of a true A1.

moonpie 09-12-2011 11:24 AM

for starters semi automatic, 40cal or larger and i'm not sure if the grip safety were in the original requirements or added during the test.
Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMCHAMPION1988 (Post 578990)
.

Yes i know the RIA is not a Ed brown or Colt.
After i bought this RIA M1911-A1FS i then bought a Colt M1911A1 GI

By the way if you think that the RIA M1911-A1FS is not a true 1911 just because the mainspring housing is a little differently shaped compared to the. Original Colt M1911A1 and because it says A1FS at the end of model number i ?.

the colt 1911A1 isn't a "true 1911" either. some ergonomic changes were made after WW1 - shorter trigger, different beavertail, arched mainspring housing etc. but since i happen to be ignorant i calls them all 1911's.

alxltd1 09-12-2011 01:21 PM

From a search

Early history and adoptionThe M1911 pistol originated in the late 1890s, the result of a search for a suitable self-loading (or semi-automatic) handgun to replace the variety of revolvers then in service.[3] The United States of America was adopting new firearms at a phenomenal rate; several new handguns and two all-new service rifles (the M1892/96/98 Krag and M1895 Navy Lee), as well as a series of revolvers by Colt and Smith & Wesson for the Army and Navy were adopted just in that decade. The next decade would see a similar pace, including the adoption of several more revolvers and an intensive search for a self-loading pistol that would culminate in official adoption of the M1911 after the turn of the decade.

Hiram S. Maxim had designed a self-loading pistol in the 1880s, but was preoccupied with machine guns. Nevertheless, the application of his principle of using bullet energy to reload led to several self-loading pistols in the 1890s. The designs caught the attention of various militaries, each of which began programs to find a suitable one for their forces. In the U.S., such a program would lead to a formal test at the turn of the 19th to the 20th century.

During the end of 1899 and start of 1900, a test of self-loading pistols was conducted, which included entries from Mauser (the C96 "Broomhandle"), Mannlicher (the Steyr Mannlicher M1894), and Colt (the Colt M1900).[3]

This led to a purchase of 1,000 DWM Luger pistols, chambered in 7.65 mm Luger, a bottlenecked cartridge. During field trials these ran into some issues, especially in regard to stopping power. Other governments had also made similar complaints. Consequently, DWM produced an enlarged version of the round, the 9mm Parabellum (known in current military parlance as the 9x19mm NATO), a necked-up version of the 7.65 mm round. Fifty of these were tested as well by the U.S. Army in 1903.


General William Crozier became Chief of Ordnance of the Army in 1901.In response to problems encountered by American units fighting Moro guerrillas during the Philippine-American War, the then-standard Colt M1892 revolver, in .38 Long Colt, was found to be unsuitable for the rigors of jungle warfare, particularly in terms of stopping power, as the Moros had very high battle morale and frequently used drugs to inhibit the sensation of pain.[4] The U.S. Army briefly reverted to using the M1873 single-action revolver in .45 Colt caliber, which had been standard during the last decades of the 19th century; the heavier bullet was found to be more effective against charging tribesmen.[5] The problems with the .38 Long Colt led to the Army shipping new single action .45 Colt revolvers to the Philippines in 1902. It also prompted the then-Chief of Ordnance, General William Crozier, to authorize further testing for a new service pistol.[5]

Following the 1904 Thompson-LaGarde pistol round effectiveness tests, Colonel John T. Thompson stated that the new pistol "should not be of less than .45 caliber" and would preferably be semi-automatic in operation.[5] This led to the 1906 trials of pistols from six firearms manufacturing companies (namely, Colt, Bergmann, Deutsche Waffen und Munitionsfabriken (DWM), Savage Arms Company, Knoble, Webley, and White-Merril).[5]

Of the six designs submitted, three were eliminated early on, leaving only the Savage, Colt, and DWM designs chambered in the new .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge.[5] These three still had issues that needed correction, but only Colt and Savage resubmitted their designs. There is some debate over the reasons for DWM's withdrawal—some say they felt there was bias and that the DWM design was being used primarily as a "whipping boy" for the Savage and Colt pistols,[6] though this does not fit well with the earlier 1900 purchase of the DWM design over the Colt and Steyr entries. In any case, a series of field tests from 1907 to 1911 were held to decide between the Savage and Colt designs.[5] Both designs were improved between each testing over their initial entries, leading up to the final test before adoption.[5]

Among the areas of success for the Colt was a test at the end of 1910 attended by its designer, John Browning. 6,000 rounds were fired from a single pistol over the course of two days. When the gun began to grow hot, it was simply immersed in water to cool it. The Colt gun passed with no reported malfunctions, while the Savage designs had 37.[5]

danf_fl 09-12-2011 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CAMCHAMPION1988 (Post 578990)
You still didn't answer my question about what were the military specifications that the 1911 needed to be met for the military to accept it??? In details if you know them.

Yes i know the RIA is not a Ed brown or Colt.
After i bought this RIA M1911-A1FS i then bought a Colt M1911A1 GI Stainless and a Gold Cup. So don't think that that the RIA GI is my only 1911.

By the way if you think that the RIA M1911-A1FS is not a true 1911 just because the mainspring housing is a little differently shaped compared to the. Original Colt M1911A1 and because it says A1FS at the end of model number i hope you have some other reasons. Why you say it is not a true 1911 care to tell me???

I mean i know it is a Filipino Affordable copy but they are still pretty accurate and reliable And for the Price usually under $400 you can't go wrong. A guy at the range with a Kimber was telling me he had more problems with his Kimber than his RIA GI.

I was not flaming you as you did me. The RIA has a history here. Some are great, some are POS.
I was giving you a fact that the RIA was not a true 1911, but modified 1911a1.
The RIA trigger area has recesses, the true 1911 does not. The RIA thumbsafety, hammer, trigger, grip safety, main spring housing, slide stop, and sights are not the same as the true 1911.

The history of the tests and the mods from each test (there were a few) is documented and changes were incorporated as things went along. The first firearm submitted was the John Browning model 1905 (which had the grip safety, angled grip, 5 1/4" barrel, and a seven round mag that were included into the 1911).

Guns&Ammo had "The Complete Book of the Model 1911, The Centennial Edition". If you can get a back copy, do it.

Now, is there anything else we can look up for you?

EMTchad 09-12-2011 04:29 PM

What dan said.

g17frantz 09-12-2011 05:20 PM

The military wanted a new self loading pistol due to the campaign against the moros in the Philippines. The .38 super was not proven as an effective cartridge due to the natives hopping up on drugs before an attack, the attackers would still keep coming. The military needed a more superior caliber and sidearm to get the job done. The process started in 1906 with several other firearm manufactures. Savage and Colt were the two that were selected in the end. However, both failed the required testing in 1907. In 1911, a selection committee commenced and Browning personally oversaw the production with the help of Fred Moore a colt employee. Together they built several test guns and on March 3rd, 1911 torture tests began with Savage and Browning's design. Each gun must fire 6,000 rounds, 100 shots would be fired and the pistol could cool down for 5 minutes. After every 1000 rounds, the pistol could be cooled and oiled. After the initial 6,000 rounds were met, the pistol would go through yet more torture tests. The pistol would have to shoot deformed cartridges, some not seated enough etc etc. The pistol would then be rusted in acid or submerged in sand and mud and more tests would be conducted. Browning's design had been proven to be far superior passing every test with flying colors. Hence the 1911 was officially born along with the .45 ACP. This was taken out of context from www.m1911.org/history.htm
I hope this answers your question

danf_fl 09-12-2011 11:09 PM

g17, for info, the .38Super came about in the 1920's as a stronger round against auto bodies. There was the .38 ACP as well as the .38 for revolvers during the time the conflict was in the Philippines, but not the .38Super.

As per wikipedia (with the Speer reloading manual referenced):
The .38 Super or .38 Super Automatic (C.I.P. designation) is a pistol cartridge that fires a 0.356 in (9.04 mm) diameter bullet. The Super was introduced in the late 1920s as a higher pressure loading of the .38 ACP or .38 Auto. The old .38 ACP propelled a 130-grain (8.4 g) bullet at 1,050 ft/s (320.0 m/s). The improved .38 Super Auto pushed the same 130-grain (8.4 g) bullet at 1,280 ft/s (390.1 m/s).


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