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Old 04-22-2013, 03:32 PM   #41
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Hey , im not gonna sit and argue and search for documented truth but i been around 53 yrs and have seen just how brutaly efficent the ones that are prosecuting you can be ,do as ya please i say , but im not giving them anything they can use against me , and in almost all cases there is a fine line between what you feel is imminent threat and what the da and jury see as imminent , carry what ya want ,make ya gun loook evil as ya want ,but when and if you do have to use that pistol with ya high power reloads and killer grips and they arrest you and try to pin a felony on you like 2 nd degree murder or manslaughter, unjistifiable manslaughter the list is very long, youll remember reading this post.And like my man up there said write a letter to nra and ask for some examples of how the da,s office went way out of their way to convict someone over a shooting.I read their mags with lots of reports of how bad the law enforcement side can be against the gun useing citizen.Hell in most states the guy ya shot in your house can sue ya you do not kill him ,im sticking with what the nra advises ,never carry reloads or do anything to make ya carry gun look evil and mankillerish they will use it against you.Now you can do as ya please.i have said all im saying on the subject but ignorance is what gets a lot of think they know it all guntoters sent to prison.Very fine line in many many states between justifiable and non justifiable shootings.good luck with that.

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Old 04-22-2013, 05:34 PM   #42
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Hey , im not gonna sit and argue and search for documented truth but i been around 53 yrs and have seen just how brutaly efficent the ones that are prosecuting you can be ,do as ya please i say , but im not giving them anything they can use against me , and in almost all cases there is a fine line between what you feel is imminent threat and what the da and jury see as imminent , carry what ya want ,make ya gun loook evil as ya want ,but when and if you do have to use that pistol with ya high power reloads and killer grips and they arrest you and try to pin a felony on you like 2 nd degree murder or manslaughter, unjistifiable manslaughter the list is very long, youll remember reading this post.And like my man up there said write a letter to nra and ask for some examples of how the da,s office went way out of their way to convict someone over a shooting.I read their mags with lots of reports of how bad the law enforcement side can be against the gun useing citizen.Hell in most states the guy ya shot in your house can sue ya you do not kill him ,im sticking with what the nra advises ,never carry reloads or do anything to make ya carry gun look evil and mankillerish they will use it against you.Now you can do as ya please.i have said all im saying on the subject but ignorance is what gets a lot of think they know it all guntoters sent to prison.Very fine line in many many states between justifiable and non justifiable shootings.good luck with that.
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Old 04-22-2013, 05:42 PM   #43
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Hey , im not gonna sit and argue and search for documented truth but i been around 53 yrs and have seen just how brutaly efficent the ones that are prosecuting you can be ,do as ya please i say , but im not giving them anything they can use against me , and in almost all cases there is a fine line between what you feel is imminent threat and what the da and jury see as imminent , carry what ya want ,make ya gun loook evil as ya want ,but when and if you do have to use that pistol with ya high power reloads and killer grips and they arrest you and try to pin a felony on you like 2 nd degree murder or manslaughter, unjistifiable manslaughter the list is very long, youll remember reading this post.And like my man up there said write a letter to nra and ask for some examples of how the da,s office went way out of their way to convict someone over a shooting.I read their mags with lots of reports of how bad the law enforcement side can be against the gun useing citizen.Hell in most states the guy ya shot in your house can sue ya you do not kill him ,im sticking with what the nra advises ,never carry reloads or do anything to make ya carry gun look evil and mankillerish they will use it against you.Now you can do as ya please.i have said all im saying on the subject but ignorance is what gets a lot of think they know it all guntoters sent to prison.Very fine line in many many states between justifiable and non justifiable shootings.good luck with that.
real easy to make such statements and i guess not feel the need to verify or back them up with facts or proof. well that's your choice.

but i will say this, it makes any statements you make in the future less than credible.
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Old 04-23-2013, 06:26 AM   #44
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Do the courts just post up all the facts about cases like that? Lol seems reasonable to me to just not get Hollywood bloodthirsty looking punisher grips.

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Old 04-23-2013, 08:23 AM   #45
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Tack i respect your opinions, but i have to disagree with this because of simple facts.

if a person used their firearm in a SD and the situation was justified, then how can they use what grips or ammo you used in it, against you? the shooting in SD would have to be either justified or not.

i am not saying some DA might not want to, simply because he was some rabid anti-gunner looking to make points with the crowd, but he still has to get a grand jury to indict the person. and even if it did make it to trial, and the shooting was justified, even a decent defence attorney would shred that DA for sure. because they have to decide on facts and evidence, not conjecture or speculation.

IMO, any DA going after someone for shooting in SD over the ammo or grips he used would probably be committing political suicide.

i too have read some of those types of articles in the past, and IMO, those are strictly opinions by these experts. most of those experts are just staff writers for the magazines.
It's incredibly naive to think that a justifiable defensive shooting will result in the appropriate facts surfacing and the DA recognizing the obvious and deciding to not prosecute. This may well be typical for defensive shootings in the home, but defensive shootings outside the home usually result in an arrest, and frequently result in prosecution.

The real facts of life are:

1. The police generally assume that the guy laying in a pool of blood on the ground is the victim and the guy standing with the gun in his hand is the bad guy.

2. As a direct result of #1 above, the police will focus their energy on collecting evidence that supports #1. Evidence that contradicts #1 may be overlooked or even intentionally ignored or destroyed.

3. The DA is a lawyer. If that doesn't scare you enough, understand that the DA is also a politician. Most DA's want to appear tough on crime, so prosecuting shooters is very high on their wish list. DA's keep scores on their successful prosecution rate - successful prosecution is the goal, not justice. As a result, the DA's office will devote more resources to prosecute a murder than they would to a lesser crime.

4. The media is generally anti-gun. As a result, the media is loathe to publish/broadcast a story that supports gun ownership. Even if the facts scream self-defense, the media will frequently spin the facts & paint a picture of a killer.

5. The public defender's office is not as well funded as the DA's office. As a result, case loads for a public defender are often 10 times as great as a private attorney might take on, sometimes exceeding 500 felonies/year. Try to imagine how much time your PD is going to spend on your case when he/she is assigned 2 new cases every day.

6. The law does NOT require the public defender's office to provide the same quality of defense that the law requires of an independent defense attorney.

7. Criminal defense attorneys deal with criminals every day almost always their client is guilty. It is common for a defense attorney to have never defended an innocent client. As a result, the typical defense attorney assumes their client is guilty - their goal is to simply minimize the penalty, not to prove innocence. Plea bargaining is the routine - you will be pressured to plead guilty to some lesser version of murder with a shorter sentence, but you'll still be a convicted felon.

8. The laws regarding discovery say the DA must give your defense council any evidence they have. DA's frequently stall providing evidence to defense council, or worse.

Below are two quotes from Marty Hayes that may help you understand what I've said. If you're still not convinced, try reading the books by John Lott or Massad Ayoob.


Quote:
Marty Hayes, J.D., President & Founder of The Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network

Recently, a Network member asked a question on our members-only internet forum, inquiring about the likelihood of a “righteous shooting” going to trial. Instead of answering him on the forum, I thought I would answer the question in the public format of our eJournal, because I would like my comments to reach to more than just the members who visit our forum. In addition, this gives eJournal readers a taste of the type of discussions we have on our members-only forum.

This member had just finished viewing the Network’s three educational DVDs, and asked this question:

“After having listened to the three tapes, and planning on a second viewing next week, I have several questions and observations. Let’s say you are involved in a self-defense shooting where there is no chance of retreat, the case meets the “reasonable man” standard, fear of death or serious bodily harm, you are a citizen in good standing, and the incident meets the standards of Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy. You give the appropriate information to responding police and then contact your attorney. What are the chances of the DA saying there is no case against the defender (you) here and stopping the case there? Can your attorney, who knows something about you and your training, interact with the DA at this point and suggest there is little chance of a successful prosecution and argue for dismissal at this point?”

Isn’t this a great question? Now you know why I wanted to answer this publicly.

First, the answer to this question will be somewhat dependent upon whether you live in a grand jury state, or whether in your jurisdiction the prosecutor makes the decision to charge you with a crime. If all shootings automatically go in front of a grand jury, then it is up to the grand jury to decide to have you prosecuted. Depending on the local court rules and customs, you may or may not get to testify, and you likely will not have an attorney by your side if you do testify. So, you make the decision as to how much you want to tell the grand jury, and then they decide if there is a preponderance of evidence to believe that you committed a crime, or acted in genuine self defense. On the other hand, if it is up to only the prosecutor to decide to prosecute, then what you say and what your attorney does can certainly affect whether or not you get prosecuted.

However, the real problem lies in who decides whether or not the shooting was righteous. Sure, YOU know all the facts, and YOU know what you perceived, and YOU know how you felt. But, assuming you live in a state where the prosecutor makes the charging decisions, how can he or she come to understand what you knew, felt and perceived?

In a perfect world, there will be smart, sober and uninvolved witnesses to tell the police detectives that you were reacting to a viable deadly threat against you, and that you had no other choice but to shoot. But, what if your case mirrors that of Harold Fish, a retired school teacher who was hiking alone on May 11th, 2004 in a remote part of Arizona, when he was set upon by two aggressive dogs and one larger and younger mentally ill individual, who (according to Fish) was running towards him and threatening to kill him? Many reading this will be familiar with the Harold Fish incident, and those of you who are not would be well advised to spend some time at www.haroldfishdefense.org, to see a real-life example of what can happen to good people after they use deadly force in self defense.

If your name is Harold Fish, your chances of being prosecuted are 100%, because that is what occurred, and he was found guilty of second degree murder. His conviction has been appealed, and I believe will be overturned, but nonetheless, he is still in jail for what is arguably a perfectly justified shooting.

And, while the Fish case is an anomaly, what if you happened to get a prosecutor like the one on Fish’s case, who yielded to public pressure to prosecute, and upon prosecution, demonized the type of pistol you were carrying like he did with the 10mm Kimber pistol Fish had on him? Or, you get the type of prosecutor who makes a big point that you were using super-duper killer bullet (Federal Hydra-Shocks), like Fish was. Or, you get the type of prosecutor who will make a big argument that you should have fired a warning shot first because you fired a warning shot when the dogs were running at you, even though when you shot the individual, he was only 10 feet away?

On the other hand, it has been my experience in dealing with, and researching these matters, that normally the system works. But, we don’t train and carry guns for the norm, do we? Of course not, and we cannot approach the likelihood of being prosecuted for a “righteous shooting” based on the percentages of wrongful prosecutions.
Quote:
Marty Hayes, J.D..

Words mean something. So do appearances.

For example, if you were in charge of hiring an individual for a public relations job, would you likely hire the well-spoken, well-educated individual wearing a nice suit or hire the very same type of person who showed up in blue jeans and a t-shirt?

Of course, you would hire the nicely dressed person, all other things being equal. Basic Logic 101.

So, what does this have to do with armed self defense? Quite a bit, I believe. I’ll explain.

Let’s say you live in an ultra-liberal city in the U.S. of A. But, due to a sane legislature in your state, you still have the right to own any type of firearm for self-defense (with perhaps the exception of a fully-automatic machine gun, so let’s take that off the table). Still, you can pick and choose between the AR-15 military style rifles, AK-47 “assault rifles,” nine-shot Benelli combat shotguns, and, of course, the latest and greatest high-capacity pistols using the latest and greatest deadly ammunition. And, given this right, you accumulate a nice collection of these firearms, about which there is nothing wrong or illegal. Your collection consists of a couple of AR-15s (also called M-4s), several handguns (both semi-auto and revolvers), and a few basic pump and semi-auto shotguns. You may also be into hunting and own a couple of hunting rifles, perhaps even a lever action 30-30 carbine you inherited from your father.

So, which ones do you keep loaded for self defense in your home?

Assuming it is legal, you can keep any or all of them loaded, and I have been in homes where that is the modus operandi. I have no issues with that, and in fact, it is perhaps the most logical way to go. Now, I presume for the sake of our discussion, that people have their “go-to” guns, and those are the ones that stay loaded. Again, which do you choose? Do you choose the AR-15 with white light, red-dot sight and tactical sling on it, or choose the Marlin 30-30? Each will fulfill the role of the home defense rifle pretty aptly.

But, also assuming that you live in that ultra-liberal locale, if you choose the AR-15 over the lever action hunting rifle to shoot and kill the individual you confronted on your door step with the tire iron in his hand, and given a murky set of facts and witness statements, which firearm used will more likely than the other result in your arrest and prosecution, all other facts being equal? I think you can see where I am going.

I have given this subject a considerable amount of personal contemplation since reading the appellate briefs of Harold Fish, following his conviction for first-degree murder (www.haroldfishdefense.org). In the appellate brief submitted after Fish’s conviction, it was written:

“Fish was grilled about whether the Kimber 10mm was one of the ‘most powerful’ guns that he owned. [Id. 193-94]. He was questioned extensively about the hollow point bullets that he used. [Id. 194-95]. Fish was asked about the impact of a hollow point bullet upon a subject, which admittedly causes the bullet to expand. [Id. 197-98, 257-59]. He was asked about the written training materials that he received when he took a concealed weapons course. [Id. 199-200]. Fish was questioned extensively about the safety mechanism on the 10mm handgun. [Id. 201-202]. He was questioned about whether or not the gun was loaded in the automobile during his drive to northern Arizona. [Id]. None of this evidence was relevant to the self-defense issue.”

Fish did not testify at trial, but instead, the above refers to his Grand Jury testimony. The point is that the prosecutor did everything he could to make Fish look like a crazed Rambo-type gun nut–and succeeded, by the way, as he got an indictment for murder.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:30 AM   #46
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well Mr. OlympicFox, you seem to put alot of effort into this. nicely done i might add as well.

your arguement may have some traction is one of those gun hating liberal states that doesn't have a Castle Doctrine.

fortunately i don't. where i live, i don't have a burden of proof to bear when i decide to use deadly force in defence of myself or my loved ones, or even my property.

sorry i still don't buy your opinions or arguement. sell it to the sheep. they're buying anything that's sold to them these days.

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Old 04-23-2013, 12:20 PM   #47
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The argument does hold weight in certain states. In NY or NJ I'd see it. Hell look at George Zimmerman in Fl. He didn't do anything as far as excessive force or flashy gun, according the story I heard and got prosecuted. And if the state doesn't press charges the family can still sue in some states. That varies by state. In Texas you can't be sued if the law found it was self defense, and you can shoot to protect personal property.

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Old 04-23-2013, 03:01 PM   #48
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WOW sorry guy,s did not mean to start all this , just be told the first thing i was told in my ccw class was always carry factory ammo in ya carry gun ,I am sticking to it , I did say you can do as ya like.I will stick with the on the shelf stuff and have 0 evil look on my carry pistol,That is just me ,i know they can and somtimes will use it against ya. .Sure did not mean to staRT a controversy ill go back my corner now and stfu . If they want to aND can turn a so called self defense into you wanted to make sure he was dead trial, some states will. now hope that finishes that lol. in the end it is you're gun do as ya like.

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Old 04-23-2013, 03:33 PM   #49
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Let us know how you like your 1911. For some people it's like getting bit by a bug. I can't find a pistol I like the look or feel of over a 1911.

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Old 04-23-2013, 04:07 PM   #50
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Gawgd this thread got stoopid

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