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Old 03-21-2012, 03:02 PM   #21
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I feel night sights are a must have, a laser will help if the eyes are failing for practice or just target shooting. In a SD situation it is pretty much point and shoot as fumbling for a switch is not an option, if it has a pressure pad in the grip it may help. I just feel the night sights will never fail you.

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Old 03-21-2012, 04:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by levelcross
I feel night sights are a must have, a laser will help if the eyes are failing for practice or just target shooting. In a SD situation it is pretty much point and shoot as fumbling for a switch is not an option, if it has a pressure pad in the grip it may help. I just feel the night sights will never fail you.
Not true, they go bad, just not as fast
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:53 PM   #23
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I know it seems to make intuitive sense that you must be able to see the sights in order to use them but under duress, LEOs have found it extremely difficult, if not impossible, to take your eyes off the threat and look at their sights.

The result is point shooting and a 1 in 5 hit rate. While Col. Applegate did achieve some success in teaching this skill, I have not seen anyone who has been able to duplicate this feat. I'm sure it's possible, just not probable.

A company felt so strongly about this concept, they made it their logo - "Front Sight." They honestly believe point shooting is not a repeatable skill so they refuse to teach it and concentrate on marksmanship fundamentals.

I do not want to shoot anyone and I do not want to hire a lawyer and if that little red dot can prevent either - I'm all for it. I honestly don't know why, other than cost, I waited so long to get one.

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Old 03-21-2012, 06:44 PM   #24
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@gonzilla: when I took the ccdw class.. the instructor taught me that I should break away from the normal and quite instinctive habit of using one eye and to practice pulling the gun up and looking through the sights with "both" eyes.
His point was that not only are you seeing what you're aiming at, you also see things around in your peripheral vision. this helps to visualize any other threat or any potentially innocent surroundings. Essentially it is a point and shoot thing almost, except you do have a visual on the sights too. With practice it can get to be second nature.

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Old 03-21-2012, 07:23 PM   #25
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There is a point when your ability to shoot through the sights while focusing on the threat comes about. Brian Enos introduced the concept years ago in his book and many have recently "discovered" the "sight continuum" in recent years as their own. Years ago I was running plate racks for speed and wondered if I was truly using my sights or indexing so I timed separate runs with and without sights. The times were the same but the hits were obviously better when the sights were not covered up.

Experimenting the same way with near to far IPSC targets has shown that I do use the sights even when I don't "see" them. Your eyes/mind will use them subconsciously if you practice with them in front of you. During stress you will focus on the target but your continual use of sights will allow your mind to see what it needs to see for a sight picture.

Using Police shootings as a standard is an error. Most Police are minimal marksman's at best and do not have anywhere near the amount of trigger time needed to know their index and sight continuum. The only account I have ever found of an IPSC shooter in a gunfight was one who dropped a guy at 20 yards (IIRC) in a parking lot at night and he said it was easier than most stages he had trained on as far as the shooting difficulty.

There is a reason SPECOP guys like Howe use their sights... they work all the time and the time difference verses the amount of shooting needed to consistently perform at point shooting is grossly out of proportion compared to sighted shooting.

The other day I tried out the irons on top of my ACOG NSN for the first time at 25/50/100yards and while I did not see them because I was snap shooting as fast as possible, I was making "A" hits so I must have been using them because rolling the gun and index shooting had pathetic results.

I see the sight continuum and people trusting their brain to use the amount of sight picture it needs come into play with "B-Class" shooters and above in IPSC or Master Class shooters in IDPA. Outside of those who shoot competition and push their abilities I have not seen it.



PS> sorry for the thread drift.

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Old 03-23-2012, 12:23 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GunRunner View Post
Not true, they go bad, just not as fast
True they do go bad, just not over night. If the gun stays in the safe for long periods of time I can see someone not seeing that they have gone dim. Unlike batteries going bad just when you need them most.

Don't get me wrong I want a set of CT grips on my 1911, I just don't want that to be the way I learn to shoot it. Once the 20' shot is natural instinct then the
CT sights will come .
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Old 03-24-2012, 12:30 PM   #27
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I honestly don't understand why you would not want both if you can afford it. The CT lasers are a great practice aid "dry fire" , and will allow you to get hits if you are put in a position where you are not physically able to align the sights. You may never need them but in some situations they do offer a advantage. If I was limited on funds my first choice would be a flashlight before a laser/night sites.

Good night sights and laser sights were not available when Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper were alive . If they were alive today I think there is a pretty good chance they would own both in one form or another . Nothing will ever replace good training/practice but why not give yourself every available advantage

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Old 03-24-2012, 02:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmw
I honestly don't understand why you would not want both if you can afford it. The CT lasers are a great practice aid "dry fire" , and will allow you to get hits if you are put in a position where you are not physically able to align the sights. You may never need them but in some situations they do offer a advantage. If I was limited on funds my first choice would be a flashlight before a laser/night sites.

Good night sights and laser sights were not available when Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper were alive . If they were alive today I think there is a pretty good chance they would own both in one form or another . Nothing will ever replace good training/practice but why not give yourself every available advantage
Hell yeah, now that is well said! To the person that said they will get them after they get better with shooting, the laser can cut that time down a bit as well.
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