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Old 11-27-2010, 07:13 AM   #21
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About a year ago one of my former students was involved in a shooting where he was attacked by a man with a sword and a knife. My student re-acted the way I had taught him. He got off 2 rounds. One round hit the suspect in the chest and the other round hit him in the head. Another shooter fired off one round and stuck the bad guy with the sword in the arm. The bad guy died at the scene from being shot by a 9 mm pistol.

Shot placement is the key and it doesn't matter which caliber you use.

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Old 11-27-2010, 09:19 AM   #22
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Why a Hollowpoint?


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Old 11-27-2010, 09:39 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnealg View Post
One point is that is in a critical shooting, the recommendation is to keep shooting until the threat ceases to be a threat. Shooting one shot may be enough, but shooting just once would be a foolish risk, it would be better to use too many rounds than not enough. Check on the training given to most all law enforcement personnel.

It would be here that the 9mm would stand out--the lesser recoil means getting the gun back on target quicker which means more rounds on target quicker.

I shoot both the 9 and the .45 and each has its good points and bad. But my choice of a primary carry weapon is the Glock 19 with +P+ ammo. I trust it for the simplicity of the Glock, adequate firepower, and I know I can put enough rounds in the needed spots quickly.
I'm with you. I must admit I have never been in a fire fight but I've seen enough "World's Scariest Shootouts" to show me that even a trained law enforcement officer can swap bullets with a bad guy at less than 15 feet and completely miss due to the stress. Somtimes in adverse conditions the best of one's training goes out the window and SPRAY and PRAY cannot be avoided. In that case, I'll stick with the higher capacity of the 9mm (with +P JHP's) regardless of what science and ballistic charts say. No disrespect to those who prefer higher calibers. To each their own.
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Old 11-29-2010, 02:06 PM   #24
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From my experience stopping power and hydrostatic shock and temporary and permant cavitation are very closely linked.
Not a flame just wondering. Is your experience based on you shooting animals, field dressing them and then observing the path and destruction of the bullet? Or, working in an ER and observing the same effects with humans who have been shot? Or, did you serve in combat and remember what you saw. In any of those cases I would not question your experience. Me: no combat time, but LEO 23yrs, Hunter 25 yrs. From my experience shooting animals, observing people after they were shot and one shooting incident where I was the shooter -There is no magic bullet. Doing the math on paper won't always give you the best results in the field. Within reason that is.

I shot a deer once with a 12ga sabot. Disintegrated the heart. Can't get better than that! Right? Well, that deer ran for almost a hundred yards before it fell. Adrenaline, the will to survive or in the case of humans, what drug is in their system at that time will play a role in the final outcome. It's only "instant lights out" if you sever the brain cord as taught in Sniper training. For handguns I personally like the 9mm and 45 ACP with the best bullets available to me. For hunting it depends more on the area i'm hunting. In any case never less that 30 cal. The rest is doing my part. I know I can not control those other factors I mentioned. Just my 2 1/2 cents.
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Old 12-04-2010, 10:59 PM   #25
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It all boils down to bullet placement. No matter what caliber you shoot,
practice....practice....practice

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Old 12-05-2010, 11:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampco88 View Post
Not a flame just wondering. Is your experience based on you shooting animals, field dressing them and then observing the path and destruction of the bullet? Or, working in an ER and observing the same effects with humans who have been shot? Or, did you serve in combat and remember what you saw. In any of those cases I would not question your experience. Me: no combat time, but LEO 23yrs, Hunter 25 yrs. From my experience shooting animals, observing people after they were shot and one shooting incident where I was the shooter -There is no magic bullet. Doing the math on paper won't always give you the best results in the field. Within reason that is.

I shot a deer once with a 12ga sabot. Disintegrated the heart. Can't get better than that! Right? Well, that deer ran for almost a hundred yards before it fell. Adrenaline, the will to survive or in the case of humans, what drug is in their system at that time will play a role in the final outcome. It's only "instant lights out" if you sever the brain cord as taught in Sniper training. For handguns I personally like the 9mm and 45 ACP with the best bullets available to me. For hunting it depends more on the area i'm hunting. In any case never less that 30 cal. The rest is doing my part. I know I can not control those other factors I mentioned. Just my 2 1/2 cents.
I never said there was a magic bullet. As for experience i have taken some game in my life. Although mostly just coyotes and boar and squirrel. I don't hunt for food as i can simply go to the grocery store. But I do make it a point to be knowledgable of hunting...and i just have a personal vendetta against coyotes and boar.

You are correct, shot placement is very important. However, the power of the round being used is also extremely important. There is a reason snipers dont use 556. Because .308 has significantly more power than 556, especially at range. My point was not that shot placement does not matter. It does with any weapon you use be it a sword a bow or a firearm. My point was that you have more wiggle room with a .45 than you do with a 9mm. Just like you can certainly kill someone with a scalpel by hitting them in the right spot. But you would have a much easier time with a sword or an axe.

Plus the 45 has other benifits besides its indisputably larger amount of power. The 45 acp travels slower than sound already, so equiping a supressor does not require you to use a weaker round for the supressor to do anything (unlike a 9mm). Granted this is pretty much only applicable in a military and law enforcement scenario.

Also, in humans anyway, destroying the heart allows for about 7 seconds of life before the target becomes unconcious. They average speed of a white tail deer is about 30 miles per hour. Which equates to ~14.6 yards per second. Interestingly enough 7 x 14.6=102 yards. So assuming the incapacitation time on a white tail ( i assumed your deer was a white tail) is the same as a human, we can conclude that a deer could make it about 100 yards without a heart, assuming no other organs where harmed. Now I am not saying that shooting a deer in the heart is always going to result in a deer being able to run for 100 yards. I am just showing that it is theoretically possible. Even with perfect shot placement (as you did) the target will not necesarily be stopped. However with a more powerful round we can hypothesis that the animal or human would be stopped more quickly.

@Punisher56 Agreed, after only 1 week of having not practiced at the range your shooting skills can drop as much as 20%.
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Old 12-06-2010, 03:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory2 View Post
I never said there was a magic bullet. As for experience i have taken some game in my life. Although mostly just coyotes and boar and squirrel. I don't hunt for food as i can simply go to the grocery store. But I do make it a point to be knowledgable of hunting...and i just have a personal vendetta against coyotes and boar.

You are correct, shot placement is very important. However, the power of the round being used is also extremely important. There is a reason snipers dont use 556. Because .308 has significantly more power than 556, especially at range. My point was not that shot placement does not matter. It does with any weapon you use be it a sword a bow or a firearm. My point was that you have more wiggle room with a .45 than you do with a 9mm. Just like you can certainly kill someone with a scalpel by hitting them in the right spot. But you would have a much easier time with a sword or an axe.

Plus the 45 has other benifits besides its indisputably larger amount of power. The 45 acp travels slower than sound already, so equiping a supressor does not require you to use a weaker round for the supressor to do anything (unlike a 9mm). Granted this is pretty much only applicable in a military and law enforcement scenario.

Also, in humans anyway, destroying the heart allows for about 7 seconds of life before the target becomes unconcious. They average speed of a white tail deer is about 30 miles per hour. Which equates to ~14.6 yards per second. Interestingly enough 7 x 14.6=102 yards. So assuming the incapacitation time on a white tail ( i assumed your deer was a white tail) is the same as a human, we can conclude that a deer could make it about 100 yards without a heart, assuming no other organs where harmed. Now I am not saying that shooting a deer in the heart is always going to result in a deer being able to run for 100 yards. I am just showing that it is theoretically possible. Even with perfect shot placement (as you did) the target will not necesarily be stopped. However with a more powerful round we can hypothesis that the animal or human would be stopped more quickly.

@Punisher56 Agreed, after only 1 week of having not practiced at the range your shooting skills can drop as much as 20%.
I agree too that a .45 round would be a preferred choice in a defense shooting scenario. I guess the point I was trying to make was, with any handgun round you have to be prepared for less than better, immediate results. And because of this you have to remain agressive once committed to the fight. It's like that nightmare where you are shooting the bad guy and he keeps advancing. There is some truth to that. We are always trained to shoot until the threat is over. No matter what.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:48 PM   #28
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I carry a Glock 19 with TLR-1 for duty and off duty.

I have owned and carried, for duty:
1911's (Gov't & Commander)
Glock 17, 22 & 23
Ruger P89 (1st Duty Gun)
Sig P220
S & W 19, 65
Ruger GP100 6" (My Sgt. Carried a S & W 29)
He loved saying make my day, LOL

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Old 12-17-2010, 10:47 PM   #29
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I don't care what round is being shot...I don't want to get hit by any of them! On a serious note, as has been stated here already...the key is being comfortable with what you shoot and having confidence in your firearm of choice. I find that I am actually a good but more accurate with my XD9 than any of my other handguns. I attribute this to the fact that I have shot it more than any of my other guns, so naturally I know it the best. I am working on becoming as good as possible with my new Glock 27 that I plan on carrying as soon as it has earned my 100% trust. I can also promise you that you'll never hear of me just shooting someone once...at a minimum a bad guy is getting a double tap to the chest. If that doesn't drop him then one is going to the head. We used to call this a "failure drill" in training, because if the two in the chest fail to kill you the one in the head will for sure. I know we are not shooting to kill...we are shooting to "stop a threat" well, to me a double tap throug the heart and one in the brain will stop that threat every time.

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Old 12-17-2010, 11:59 PM   #30
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I'm always amazed by the plastic gun crowd that don't like the 1911 45 because they can't handle the recoil. But then go out and buy a gun half the weight and think the recoil is fine. a plastic gun in 9mm or 40 recoils every bit as much as an all steel 45 acp. I think glocks are good guns but I don't like them and they sure as hell aren't the perfect weapon. I've heard of a lot more glocks exploding than I have any other pistol, plastic or metal. and they are hell on brass if you reload. then there is the argument that a 9mm glock is cheaper to shoot. If you reload, the 45 is cheaper they use the same amount of powder and small primers cost the same as large primers. but I can shoot lead for practice in my 1911 but you can't shoot lead in a glock so you have to buy the more expensive jacketed bullets. there are trade offs for every weapon and caliber. Just shoot the one you like and let everyone else shoot what they like. personally I like all guns just because someone else shoots something different from me doesn't make their gun junk.

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