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Old 12-22-2009, 07:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm

in February of 2006 I took the liberty of revising some sections in minor ways to keep them up to date and to include recent information. Enjoy Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm


http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

July14, 1989

Order Page for Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics...* - by Duncan MacPherson
September 2005
The article you cited may be a bit more recently updated, but since it bases its conclusions on faulty methodology, it is largely irrelevent.

The links I posted deal with the dynamics of wounding mechanisms. Those do not change with time. Your article is based on data collected from shootings based on the reaction of gunshot victims when they realize they have just been shot.

Your data was collected simply by noting that if it 'stopped' an attack, then it was counted as an effective round. If the attacker was not incapacitated, then the characteristics of the round were ineffective.

This is faulty methodology. No serious researcher of terminal ballistics would include data such as "91% one-shot-stop," without regard as to which internal structures are hit. Certainly, a hit to the heart or other vital organ is usually much more reliable than a hit to the bowels of the lower abdomen, but data was collected using just one solid hit to the abdomen and then judging which caliber or aspect of exterior ballistics was most effective in producing this "stop."

You see, there are two ways in which projectiles incapacitate human aggressors: Psychological and physiological.

As mentioned, psychological incapacitation is the emotional state the target is in when he realizes he has just been shot. He may have any number of reactions to being shot. He may fall down, he may run away, he may surrender, or he may continue to advance, etc.

Psychological incapacitation will vary from one person to another. If he is a reluctant attacker, he may run away or surrender if he is hit in a non-vital area, or he may fall down even if the bullet missed him entirely. Drug or alcohol use, or just the sheer will to keep fighting may influence the target's reaction to being shot.

Obviously, this is not a reliable way to predict a bullet's effectiveness. What may incapacitate one person may not work at all on another.

No aspect of exterior ballistics from a common self defense handgun caliber can reliably "induce" a psychological stop. It is solely the reaction that the target has to being shot.

The other wounding mechanism is physiological incapacitation. This kind of incapacitation is based on shot placement and penetration deep enough to disrupt vital organs or blood loss. This is the only reliable way to "stop" an attacker.

It occurs fastest when the Central Nervous System is disrupted to the point that it can no longer tell the body what to do and the attack is stopped immediately. It does not matter which caliber, bullet style or how fast the bullet was going. If it penetrates deeply enough to disrupt the CNS, it works.

However, in the dynamics of a gunfight, disabling hits to this area (brain, upper spinal column) are difficult at best.

If the CNS is not disrupted, the only other ways to physically incapacitate the attacker is by disrupting vital organs or blood loss. But this takes time. A determined attacker may take 20 seconds or so to cease hostilities even if the heart is destroyed by gunfire.

Shot placement and penetration are the most important aspects of self defense ammunition, not the kinetic energy levels of the cartridge as implied in your article.
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Whichever service caliber you carry, expect a failure to stop and keep shooting!

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714


Last edited by MTS840; 12-22-2009 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 12-22-2009, 06:10 PM   #12
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So far, the information provided I would strongly agree with, especially MTS840, but that's just my own personal opinion. Please continue.




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Old 12-22-2009, 08:33 PM   #13
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Default Go large in weight!

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo



This link had most of the best ammo. Stick with it. Although I would count out the lighter grain calibers.
  1. Use 147 grain 9mm
  2. Use 125 grain 357 Sig
  3. Use 180 grain 40 S&W
  4. Use 230 grain 45 ACP

These grains by Speer, Hornady, Federal, and Winchester will serve all average gun owners and operators well.
  • They will achieve 12 + inches of penetration
  • They will retain 99% of their weight
  • They will stop an attacker


They are proven!
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:36 PM   #14
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Default This is all very interesting...

I'm just a dumb retired Paramedic that dealt with people that had been shot. Both LEO shootings, and civilian incidents. But? For what it's worth...

On several occasions I saw people hit with multiple 9mm's that just kept on going. Anyone from the Denver area might remember the bad guy that took more 38 and 9mm hits in front of the now closed grocery store at Sheridan and 51st ave that had ran over and killed a detective will remember the footage from Channel 4. What finally stopped that rampage was a load of OO Buck at less than ten feet. That's probably the best example that I can point to.

Another would be the woman killed in Broomfield by a stalker. Single 9mm to the back of the head, it was a FMJ round,and yes,that was a single round stop,as well as his suicide shot. Although he died several hours later at St. Anthony central...

As for 357's? They all just dropped, plain and simple, but, those were all classic hits to the CNS, and a 22 will do the same.

Pretty much the same for 45 ACP shootings. I never saw a 45 Colt shooting, so I can't really comment on that.

Now 40 S&W seems to be a fair round, but,as always placement is key. Only having been on a few, and all were police shootings my advice still is to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

As for heavy rounds, and penetration? Again, any from the Denver area will remember. I took care of the Asian kid that was shot by a gang banger in Broomfield with a 10mm Auto. He was out of surgery within the hour. That was with a 200 grain bullet... On the other hand, the robber that didn't get away after holding up the Applebee's on Main street? He took one square in the chest from an off duty officer. Weapon was 10mm Auto 180 grain from about ten feet. (We were eating there when this happened.) It blew clean through his heart, severing the spinal column... No pulses with CPR, and I called him dead right there...

Not trying to pick a fight, but those are just a few things that I had direct observation of over the years. Placement, in my opinion, is what counts more than any other factor.

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Old 12-28-2009, 12:29 AM   #15
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Bullets do strange things. The caliber stamped on your slide is no guarantee of anything.



Here's a story of a US soldier who was shot at point blank range with a .50 caliber BMG--and survived.

'I'm too stubborn to just sit in a wheelchair and take it.'


Here's a story of a woman who was shot through the brain with a .38 caliber bullet and suffered only minor wounds.

Woman makes cup of tea after being shot in head - Telegraph


And here's a story of a British soldier who was shot through the brain by a Taliban sniper.

British soldier survives bullet through brain - Telegraph


Another British soldier was shot through the brain in 1977 in Northern Ireland and survived.

Michael John survived being shot through his brain in Northern Ireland


Stories abound during warfare in which troops keep advancing, even while sustaining mortal wounds.

The point of all this is that the human body can still function even while sustaining huge amounts of damage. Don't trust the caliber of your weapon. Keep shooting until the threat is over.

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Whichever service caliber you carry, expect a failure to stop and keep shooting!

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714

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Old 12-28-2009, 01:27 PM   #16
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Default Yes they do!

Strange things do happen, as you noted. I met a guy once that had been in the Marine Corps and served on a recoiless Rifle team. Somehow, he got in front of the spotting 50 BMG barrel just as it went off. He was disabled to be sure, but he survived.

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