Use the right ammo
The following ammo choices are the best, proven bullets
by experts including the FBI, the IWBA( International Wound and Ballistics Association. ), Dr.Gary Roberts, and Dr. Martin Fackler.
Cor-Bon 185gr DPX (DPX45185)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP (RA45T)
Winchester Ranger-T 230gr JHP +P (RA45TP)
Federal Tactical 230gr JHP (LE45T1)
Federal HST 230gr +P JHP (P45HST1)
Federal HST 230gr JHP (P45HST2):)
Speer Gold Dot 230 gr JHP (23966)
Winchester Ranger 180gr JHP (RA40T)
Winchester Ranger 165gr JHP (RA40TA)
Winchester Partition Gold 165gr JHP (RA401P)
Winchester Bonded 180gr JHP (Q4355)
Speer Gold Dot 180gr JHP (53962)
Federal Tactical 165gr JHP (LE40T3)
Federal Tactical 180gr JHP (LE40T1)
Federal HST 180gr JHP (P40HST1)
Remington Golden Saber 180 gr JHP (GS40SWB)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr JHP +P+ (RA9TA)
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T):)
Winchester Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P (53617)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP (53619)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Federal Tactical 135gr JHP +P (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Federal Tactical HST 125gr
Speer Gold Dot 125gr
Remington Bonded Golden Saber 125gr
Winchester Ranger T 125gr
Corbon DPX 125gr
:) My duty ammo.
Good choices. Here's the list I go by:
Service Pistol Duty and Self-Defense Loads - M4Carbine.net Forums
A little light
Thanks for the thread. Most of the ammo is spot on, though quite a bit is too small and too fast for practical defensive/offensive uses. In 9mm the 147 grain gives bullet retention and penetration, even out performing more powerful larger calibers. As the diagram showed.
I don't shoot the 40 or 357.
As for the 45 the ammo listed is great. I had to go through a library of books and sources to get my ammo list of proven man stoppers. You just show me a site that has 70 % of them. How convenient.
Check out my site and the Glock 19C and why I consider it to be the best CC self defense/duty gun around. :)
While the lists above may, for all I know, be exactly right, it should be mentioned that the FBI criteria are designed to suit the needs of the FBI. Private citizens may not have the same needs. Private citizens are less likely than FBI agents to shoot through car parts, for example.
Federal's Personal Defense Hydrashoks are for private citizens...
FBI- formost experts on ballistics in the world.
I use 147 grain Rander or Speer gold Dot 147's. N0 +P+ 100 grain going 1490 fps @ 599 Ft/lbs is gong to out perform it in penetration, weight retention, and killing power. a simple subsonic 147 will penetrate a full 10 inches deeper than a 115 grain. A 147 gr. 9mm will go as deep ad a 230 gr. 45 acp. there's plenty of proof on the web and my site. The 45 just makes
a .251 larger hole diameter on average. That's it.
As a professional and a citizen, everyone who wants to protect themselves with their gun should forget about speed. It means nothing. Go heavy in your bullet weight.
Glock 19C and 9mm Ammo (glockperfectionorg)
Go here and learn about the 9mm and other calibers on my page. Their on the 19C page.
The reason the FBI , Dr. Fackler, deemed these bullets worthy is because they will kill or stop what you are shooting at. If you want to trust your life to Extreme shok...go ahead. For me and everyone else, stick to proven ammo which does it's job, what a bullet is intended to...kill. Save the 115 grain for target practice.
Test it out yourself. I have. I know a +P+ 115 grain will fragment and only go into 6" of flesh after hitting a rib. A 147, will be in one nice large mushroom through the heart and both lungs. On a pig. The closest animal to a human. Many companies test on pigs.
Not all bad guys are stupid or cowardly. Some know how to take cover as well as we do when bullets start flying. Not all will run away at the first sign of resistance from their intended victims.
Some bad guys may have long rap sheets and may have served time in prison. They may be tough, hardened career criminals who have been beaten, shot and/or stabbed before. They know what pain is like. They may not be afraid of your little gun and in the event you actually have to use deadly force, they may not drop after one or two solid hits. And there may be multiple bad guys with them.
Remember, a serious criminal wants to take your life a lot more than you want to take his. He will have initiative and aggression on his side. We, the good guys, will be reactive to the situation and naturally more hesitant to use deadly force. The bad guys know this and will use it to their advantage.
Some bad guys even practice with their guns. I have seen some really shady characters practicing at my own indoor pistol range. They don't all carry the cheap guns which FTF after one or two rounds. Although it is unlikely, you really may have to engage multiple attackers from behind common barriers such as interior building materials and car doors.
Even if there is no metal or glass in your way, your shots may have to penetrate through intervening arms or legs, or traverse the body from a sideways orientation. He may be crouching, or in some other position other than presenting you with a nice, unobstructed frontal body shot.
What's even more ominious is that you will probably miss at least half the shots you take at the aggressors.
In my opinion, hollowpoint bullets in calibers chosen by police agencies as their primary duty weapons are the only ones suitable for self defense.
I just think you have to plan for the worse case scenario and that your weapon should be as versitile enough to handle as many different scenarios as possible within the scope of a concealable self defense handgun.
MTS840 is on the money. And further explains my point. A 147 grain FBI approved 9mm will penetrate deeper than a 165 gr. 40, and a 185 gr. 45 acp. This is proven. End of discussion.
Go with 125 grain in .357, 147 gr. in 9mm, 180 in 40, and 230 in 45 ACP. It doesn't matter if they are +P or not. If they are on the list I posted they are meant to kill. To defeat barriers. There are bad men out there who have been shot before. They will try to kill you in the day, to steal your money at gunpoint, to take your car. They are out there and they are armed and very willing to kill you. And in most cases they will not let you shoot at them in the open. They will take a car door for cover or a house door, or behind sheetrock. I know my 147 grain bonded Rangers will penetrate, when the time comes. I know my 230 grain 45 Gold Dots and Ranger's will also.
Without the right bullet your gun is a loud noisemaker. Don't fall prey to the numbers game. With handgun ammo you will not get enough hydrostatic shock to stop an attacker. You will not get the cavitation of a .223 or .308 going 2500 + ft/persec.
Handgun ammo creates a crushing wound channel. Bullets depend on penetration.
I've tested and shot over 70,000 rounds in my life, a lot at my job which tests ammo and guns for the military. Go to the largest grain bullet. The ammo listed are the better, more known ammo makers... but any similar dependable company will do. I think Hornady makes a 147 gr. 9mm and a 230 45 acp. They aren't on the list, for example, but their ammo passes the 12" of penetration in 10% ballistic media.
When facing a determined attacker, be prepared with the right ammo. Your life does depend on it. I'll stake my life on it...because it has.
Many current 147 gr. designs have shown the best penetration and expansion available for the 9mm caliber.
And while there are a few good 115 grain 9mm loads today, the assurance that the 115 gr. hollowpoint is the best weight for this caliber is not supported by current research.
The author gives credit to work published by Marshall and Sanow, whose data some say has been discredited, to say the least.
A much better source of information can be found in the links which have already been posted in this thread and by a careful reading of Duncan MacPherson's "Bullet Penetration..." available here:
Order Page for Bullet Penetration: Modeling the Dynamics...* - by Duncan MacPherson
If you don't want to buy the book, you might want to read this document published by the FBI:
As far as exotic ammo is concerned, I can't imagine many scenarios in which it would be appropriate in a civilian self defense setting.
Even if you're in an apartment, using exotic ammo may not penetrate the walls, but it may not penetrate far enough to disrupt the vital structures of your attacker, either.
This "overpenetration" issue is way overblown, in my opinion. As mentioned earlier, you will probably miss at least half your shots anyway, especially when suddenly awakened in the middle of the night by an intruder.
I suppose exotic ammunition may have a place, especially for police or military use in some very limited applications.
But for civilian self defense use, I would pick from the lists that have been posted earlier in this thread.
I think this stupid assesment should be deleted off the internet. It is full of false outdated information.
As to frangible/exotic ammo...use it for small game hunting. Not your life.
Most of the crap wont even pass the 4 layer denim test. I have of course used it and wrote about it. It fails to feed well, is innacurate, and a waste of your money.
I love the 9mm the most. In 147 gr. there is little it can't do. For QCB 9mm's I trust the Glock 19 and HK P2000 first and foremost. These guns are proven using millions of +P rounds in hostile environments. From the operator to the civilian, these are guns that will save your life, work every time, and you can shoot all day long w/o getting sore hands.
For the 45 I like the 1911 platform only. I have shot just about every 45 handgun on the market, and the problem with most is the weight. A full size 40 oz gun or a 4 to 4.25 inch compact weighing 31+ oz. is a perfect weight that will allow for a lot of shooting, accurate shooting, and fast recovery. Nothing against Glock but the mini 45 is one of the hardest guns to keep on target, and after 100 rounds I don't want to shoot it any more.
Best 1911's for a combat weapon I have ever owned and used. Wilson's, Knighthawk, Springfield. Remember, there is a difference between a target 1911 and a QCB weapon. A Les Baer is a target gun. They recommend at least 500 rounds to break it in. You will get jams and mis feeds in this time. I own a 4" Monolith Commanche. Will I trust it now that it has about 1000 rounds through it? No. Will I trust a Wilson Combat out of the box? Yes.
Point being you need the right tools. Do your homework.
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