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Old 03-20-2010, 07:58 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lonyaeger View Post
You guys together?
They are certainly drinking from the same kool-aid pitcher. It's a shame that we old folks that shoot antique guns just aren't as wise as the young Glockers...
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Old 03-20-2010, 07:58 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by archangel2003 View Post
The 1911 still being around and so popular a hundred years later is a testament to it's quality and design.
However, technology is still advancing, and the Glock is more advanced.

What I don't get is the "old timers with huge post counts" that are supposed to be so helpful and knowledgeable, making unfounded statements, without researching the subject, that would only take a few seconds and a couple mouse clicks.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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Sorry Archangel but your way off base with saying the Glock is more advanced. Different yes, more complicated possible but more advanced is a stretch. People like different weapons and to each their own, you advocate the Glock the same as others advocate the 1911.
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:12 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by archangel2003 View Post
The 1911 still being around and so popular a hundred years later is a testament to it's quality and design.
However, technology is still advancing, and the Glock is more advanced.

What I don't get is the "old timers with huge post counts" that are supposed to be so helpful and knowledgeable, making unfounded statements, without researching the subject, that would only take a few seconds and a couple mouse clicks.

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
You are correct sir. Guilty as charged. I should have done some leg work before I posted. I would have found out that there is a conversion kit that is far easier than I thought.

Just so you know, I am a G22 owner and have been since 1985. My dislike for the glock platform is from my experience. I can't justify a personal defense handgun with a trigger take-up that requires me to acquire my target three times before it goes boom.

But what I'm really guilty of isn't my hate for the glock, but my mistaking your post as that of a 15 year old mall ninja. "New to the Glock brand and a ton of questions."

What I'm guilty of is trying to dissuade that 15 yo from taking on a project that could leave him with a negative experience with firearms. To that, I apologize.

As to your attitude, it still has me asking whether you're not still that 15 yo mall ninja with mad Google skills. At least you continue to act like one.

I am also guilty of dropping in on the glock forum for sport. I will not do that from now-on, but will still assist those of you that are interested in my thoughts on a gun company that has far more marketing people than engineers.

As for you Mr. archangel2003, as a mod I cannot place you on ignore, but I can respond to complaints and act to correct with extreme prejudice!



errata:

In defense of my unfounded statements, let's do some 'math' our members are familiar with, muzzle energy.
  • My search for .44 Mag data in Forker's Ammo & Ballistics, Third edition on page 396 shows the muzzle velocity for the Federal 240-grain JHP (C44A), Remington 240-grain SJHP (R44MAG3) and the Winchester 240-grain HSP (X44MHSP2) to be 1180 fps for all three. That's 12% less than your data.
  • Using your .50GI data (which is the same as the Guncrafters website), when run through the Muzzle Energy calculator shows the ME to be the lowest on the table. It's nowhere near 44 Mag levels.
  • I have shot my CCG 460 Rowland with hand rolled 185 gr rounds that chronyed out at 1660 fps. That's 1,132/#ft of ME. I'm happy with that being in the 44 Mag level.
  • And the 9mm +P+ ammo I carry in my antiquated Browning High Power has a higher ME than your 50GI.
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Old 03-21-2010, 01:03 AM   #24
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asking whether you're not still that 15 yo mall ninja with mad Google skills.
I prefer the term, Middle aged Mutant Ninja Mechanic, and as far as my wife is concerned, I have no Google or computer skills to speak of.

If it were not for spell check, you might think I was a 12 year old apprentice Mall Ninja.

I still have to ask those 15 year old mall ninja's for computer help now and again.
I do believe they get some sort of satisfaction helping someone more than 3 times their age with the "simple things".

Either way, It was not my intent of focusing the discussion towards the .50-GI, but on the interchangeability of the Glock upper and lower assemblies.

I feel safe with the .45-ACP rounds weight and speed to do a good job in stopping the bad guy without "overkill penetration", so if I can have that "not too fast" speed with a round that is a little bigger and heavier, and considering the expansion of the .50-GI, I'm interested, especially if I can have my same .45-ACP gun also shoot those for fun as well.

In regards of the info below, I feel safe in feeling that the Glock 21 is a .45 win, .50 win.

And as a last resort, (and just for the fun of it) I can fall back on the old "my gun is bigger than your gun" excuse.

Stolen .50-GI info from Wikipedia
The .50GI operates at pressures comparable to the .45ACP, around 15,000 psi (100 MPa). Felt recoil is not unlike that of the .45ACP. The .50GI has developed a reputation for accuracy, though this may be due to the high precision of the semi-custom and very expensive Guncrafter pistols themselves. In one test, the 300 grain (19 g) JFP (jacketed flatpoint) gave a 25-yard group of 2.24 inches, and the 300-grain JHP (jacketed hollowpoint) and 275-grain JHP gave a 25-yard group of 2.14 inches.[citation needed]

The penetration in gelatin (but not necessarily the kinetic energy) of the .50GI is significantly different than the .45ACP.[3][4] While it is one of the few examples of the largest caliber projectile (.50) in a semiauto handgun (or any firearm not considered a Destructive Device by the BATF, for that matter) it was purpose built to have a recoil impulse and kinetic energy substantially less than the magnum .50 caliber rounds such as the 50 Action Express (semiautomatic) or .500 S&W Magnum (revolver). Factory loaded ammunition has a kinetic energy of around 500 ft·lb. The Guncrafter Industries' website has suggested loads that push the cartridge into the realm of the .44 Magnum.

In one evaluation the following performance difference was noted between the .45ACP and the .50GI: "It actually pounded my steel target with so much force that it knocked the entire 100-pound plate and stand combo hard enough to make it furrow the ground it stood upon.[...]Folks, these .50 calibers really do hit that hard. [The 300 grain TMJ] caused dings in steel targets that normally fracture .40 and .45 cal rounds into so much dust." [5]

The cartridge is rarely used in law enforcement or for personal defense due to limited availability of ammunition and guns chambered for the cartridge. Currently, the only commercial handguns available in this caliber are Guncrafter Industries' own Colt 1911 handgun variants and its Glock 21 / Glock 20 conversion upper. However, at least one gunsmith has produced a custom revolver for the .50GI.[6]
[edit] Ballistics

* 185 gr (12 g) JHP, 1200 ft/s, 591 ft-lb
* 275 gr (18 g) JHP, 900 ft/s, 495 ft-lb
* 300 gr (19 g) JFP, 700 ft/s, 350 ft-lb
* 300 gr (19 g) JHP, 860 ft/s, 493 ft-lb




Stolen .45-ACP info from Wikipedia
The result is one of the world's most effective combat pistol cartridges, one that combines very good accuracy and stopping power for use against human targets.[10] The cartridge also has relatively low muzzle blast and flash, as well as moderate recoil. The .45 ACP also operates at a relatively low maximum chamber pressure rating of 21,000 psi (145 MPa) (compared to 35,000 psi/240 MPa for 9mmP and .40 S&W, 37,500 psi/260 MPa for 10mm Auto, 40,000 psi/280 MPa for .357 SIG), which helps extend service life of weapons it is fired in.

Like many pistol cartridges, it is a low-velocity round, and thus not particularly effective against body armor. Another drawback for large scale military operations is the cartridge's large size, weight, the increased material cost of manufacture compared to the smaller 9x19mm Parabellum cartridge, and lack of compliance with Standardization Agreements pertaining to handgun ammunition currently enacted between the US and many of its allies.

Even in its non-expanding full metal jacket (FMJ) version, the .45 ACP cartridge has a reputation for effectiveness against human targets because its large diameter creates a deep and substantial permanent wound channel which lowers blood pressure more rapidly.[10] However, some writers, such as the published work of Marshall and Sanow, have cast the reputation of .45 ACP as being the "best" at this task into debate.[10] Marshall and Sanow's work, while receiving criticism from Dr. Fackler and others, show the .45 ACP, loaded with the best hollowpoint bullets and fired from a 5 in (13 cm) barrel to be a good "one shot stopper", somewhat better than the 9x19mm, equal with the .40 S&W, and only a few percentage points behind the "King" of the Marshall and Sanow study — the .357 Magnum fired from a 4 in (10 cm) barrel.[10]

The wounding potential of bullets is often characterized in terms of a bullet's expanded diameter, penetration depth, and energy. Bullet energy for .45 ACP loads varies from roughly 350 to 500 ft·lbf (470 to 680 J). It has been shown that bullets transferring over 500 ft·lbf (680 J) of energy in 12 inches of penetration can produce remote wounding effects sometimes called hydrostatic shock. However, at these levels of energy, these remote wounding effects and enhanced incapacitation do not always occur, in which case bullet performance depends on directly crushing tissue by means of expansion and penetration. The table below shows common performance parameters for several .45 ACP loads. Bullet weights from 185 to 230 grains are common. Penetration depths from 11 inches to over 27 inches are available for various applications and risk assessments. The Marshall and Sanow "one-shot stop" rating varies from 65% for the non-expanding FMJ which produces a ballistic pressure wave of 252 psi to over 90% for the some JHPs. The average incapacitation times (estimated for a 170 lb male shot in the center of the chest) vary from 7.2 to 13.8 seconds.

Being a moderate-powered cartridge, the wide diameter of the .45 ACP bullets produces a decreased tendency to overpenetrate, which reduces the projectile's possibility of passing through the intended target with enough velocity to injure another person.[10] The combination of stopping power and controlled penetration makes the .45 ACP practical for police use, although numerous issues, including the resulting decrease in magazine capacity and the larger size and weight of pistols chambered in this caliber, have led more police departments in the USA to adopt sidearms in 9x19mm, .40 S&W, and .357 SIG. Modern versions of .45 ACP handguns have magazines capable of holding as many as 14 cartridges, such as the Springfield Armory XD or Glock model 21.[13]
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Old 03-21-2010, 01:59 AM   #25
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I also get my info from WikiPedia, That certainly is the authoritative source of choice.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:02 AM   #26
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:06 AM   #27
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WRONG! THIS is how it works, Fanboy!

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Old 03-21-2010, 04:27 AM   #28
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Not always but you omitted the well respected part. I will give Cane the benefit of the doubt every day of the week over someone whose initial post inquires about converting a Glock into a Howitzer. He was offering you his experience and you chose to berate and lecture him, too bad that's your loss.
You meant to say 'cannon", JPyle. The Howitzer was developed to fill the gap between mortar (Indirect fire) and cannon (Direct fire). I looked it up. Then I corrected it. It said "gun" where it should have said "cannon", because to qualify as a "gun", it has to be < 20mm.

And,


If what you find is incorrect and you fix it, it still doesn't count, because I already did that, so go ahead and post the incorrect info. Either way, I've already won.
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Old 03-21-2010, 04:37 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by gorknoids View Post
You meant to say 'cannon", JPyle. The Howitzer was developed to fill the gap between mortar (Indirect fire) and cannon (Direct fire). I looked it up. Then I corrected it. It said "gun" where it should have said "cannon", because to qualify as a "gun", it has to be < 20mm.

And,


If what you find is incorrect and you fix it, it still doesn't count, because I already did that, so go ahead and post the incorrect info. Either way, I've already won.
LOL...so I guess what you are saying in your usual subtle way is..."if you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance baffle 'em with BS?"
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Old 03-21-2010, 03:46 PM   #30
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Default Screw getting the glock!

SCREW GETTING THE GLOCK!

I'M GETTING ME ON OF THOSE HEISENBERG COMPENSATORS WITH THE CARDINAL GRAMMETERS USING THE UNILATERAL PHASE DETRACTORS, 6 HYDROSCOPIC MARZELVEINS, AMBIFICIENT LUNAR WAVESHAFT, WITH THE LOTUS O-DELTIOD TYPE MAIN WINDING.

FUNNY THEY FAILED TO MENTION THE POTENTIAL COAGULATED PENTANE INSOLUBLES ISSUE WITH THE PANENDERMIC SEMOBOLOID SLOTS OF THE STATOR IN THE NON-REVERSIBLE TREMIPIPE AND THE DIFFERENTIAL GIRDLESPRING.

Perhaps they could get a mall ninja to help them out?

COAGULATED PENTANE INSOLUBLES = that black carbon that stains motor oil black after running a while.

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