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Old 06-17-2008, 06:10 PM   #21
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I don't want to get into the middle of a pissing match here, but for DEFENSIVE purposes, 30 yards is out of the question. Unless you and the adversary are standing alone on a barren wasteland, you should be seeking cover. Cover. Cover. Trying to engage a threat at 30 yards with a handgun is just not practical. If it's a case of trying to defend someone else that is closer to the threat, then obviously you've accepted the fact that chances of you getting shot are pretty good. If you are going interveine on someone else's behalf at 30 yards, then effectively you're in attack mode, even if it is justified. I am not saying that 30 yard shots would NEVER happen, but "self defense" means doing what is neccessary to break contact and get yourself to safety, and 30 yards is a good buffer to get to cover or get away. Unlesss you're a soldier or a cop, actively engaging a target at 30 yards is way out of the norm, and even then, a handgun is not suitable. For a most likely (again, I never said 30 yards is impossible) case, training at closer distance is more practical. Should you be able to hit center mass at 30 yards? Absolutely. But then it becomes more marksmanship training. Closer is more probable. I stand with eng208 from a practicality standpoint.

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Old 06-18-2008, 01:46 AM   #22
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Jeep you see the biggest problem with you and eng208 "though he isn't as bad as you at it" is you make statements in absolute terms , often then slightly retreat from that statement but never the less you have made it in a public forum .

When it comes to a CCW holder using their weapon with legal justification or a Police officer having to use his if there is anything to be learned from studying the subject is that there are no absolutes .

CCW holders have the legal justification "Note I said justification NOT obligation" to act in the defense of others not just their personal defense . yet you make this statement

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but for DEFENSIVE purposes, 30 yards is out of the question.
Fact of the matter is not too long ago a CCW holder acted for defensive purposes "just not for his personal defense" at extended ranges and saved the life of an on duty police officer .

I recall reading that in Florida there was a robbery in progress and the officer had taken up a position of cover outside covering the buildings entrance . What he didn't know was that there was either a member or members outside of the building and they were working their way into position behind him to ambush him , a CCW holder saw it all unfolding and got behind the perps and shot them instead . The officer never had a clue that he was about to die .

Another statement you both seem to be in agreement on that is nothing but opinion yet is presented it as fact

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The 30 yd shot might be fun and a challenge, but serves no purpose in qualifying concealed carry use. A 30 yd shot by a concealed carry holder would be torn apart in court.
Fact of the matter is if the force is used within the demands of local/state laws governing the use of deadly force distance doesn't matter . To continue to insist otherwise is just begging for some Antigun politician to take notice and pass some stupid law .

If you've done much reading of the popular writers on the subject you may find a case in which Massod Ayoob testified for the defense of a person being prosecuted by a PA making the same erroneous assumptions you make .

Because the weapon used by the aggressor was a 2 inch barreled revolver and the distance between the two men was unusually long the PA insisted that the person really wasn't in grave danger due to some assumed inaccuracies of short barreled guns at extended ranges .

MR. Ayoob took a few examples of snubbies to the range and tested them at the range of 100 yards and proved that yes indeed you are in grave danger at those long ranges .

One glaring example in favor longer than assumed range shooting has long been an established drill for law enforcement officers .

Ever heard of the Tuller Drill ? For years it was assumed that a person with a knife at the extended distance of 21 feet wasn't an imminent threat to a person and therefore deadly force wasn't justified . Tuller laid all of the assumptions and fantasies to rest .

While I will agree that a person who carries a weapon for defense needs to do so in a manner in which it is first carried in a safe manner so they never lose possession of it yet it is easily accessible . And that they need to practice accessing the weapon and drawing it to be certain that cover garment doesn't interfere with the draw .

Once the hand is firmly on the weapon the draw needs to be fairly quick and clean , what the problem of insisting on pure speed is it implies "and will be taken by all of the novices that read it as such" a quick grab for the weapon "ala the opening of a episode Gunsmoke" .

As stated this is all but avoided in most circumstances by a person being aware of their surroundings and it is also rather a dangerous thing to practice with a loaded weapon as G21 pointed out .

Just as a Police officer places his hand on or near their gun when approaching a vehicle at a traffic stop so does a CCW holder need to do when they sense that a danger to themselves may be near .
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Old 06-18-2008, 01:59 AM   #23
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Sometimes the decision to engage doesn't belong to you. You do what you have to do over that distance initially chosen by someone else. It could be six feet; it could be 150 feet. Doesn't matter! What does matter is winning; and, a seasoned gunman will know and will do whatever he has to in order to survive the fight - Period.

Me? I have only one fast rule for gunfighting: I'm a devout Christian Fundamentalist; and, that one single rule is; 'Thou shalt not murder.' If I should ever have to reach for a gun this, and only this, is my sole criterion. Distance, compelled hiding, or compulsory running away mean next to nothing to me.

If an adversary closes the distance with me, I will engage him; if an adversary closes in on my hiding place, again, I will engage him; or, if I attempt to run away and am pursued then, once more, I will seek to engage. Why is this so difficult to understand?

In every gunfight there are three distinct things which you must struggle to overcome: (1) The other gunman, (2) time, and (3) distance. You must confront and defeat all three of these potentially destructive elements if you want to survive.
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Old 08-03-2008, 07:18 PM   #24
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How fast are you at pulling and shooting your conceal carry gun. Everyone talks about how well they shoot but in a situtaion how will you function.
Have been hearing/seeing so many recent, practically identical bytes about how the recent tragic shooting would have been prevented.... (wait for it...)

'IF ONLY every (presumably) man, woman and child
had a concealed handgun, this would have been prevented.'


And here you are saying that, if you are actually gun owner who is serious about saving a life, you would... PRACTICE?

It's almost as if you actually considered why exactly you are carrying a handgun in the first place. And that you are familiar with everything that goes with it- knowledge, practice and actual serious though about consequences of acting/not acting.

Way too hard. Much easier just to talk and say you could, rather than practice and know that you CAN.

Su from Chicago

"I believe in self-defense for women. And I approved this message."
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Old 08-03-2008, 09:26 PM   #25
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Tried it at my range today...5 sec., give or take a tick..1991A1 at 3 yards, Pull over sweatshirt, IWB Galco Summer Comfort, Hand Loaded 230 grain Speer JHP, 2 in the upper abdomen.

My thinking tells me I'm going to have my weapon out before it becomes a fast draw contest. Be aware of your surroundings and don't put yourself in jeapordy unless absolutely necessary. The beauty of concealed carry is that you have the element of suprise, I plan to use it to my advantage.

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Old 08-04-2008, 12:47 PM   #26
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+1 G21.45. The single best thing you can do in a gun fight to maximize your chances of victory is to first seek cover. At 3 feet, cover is not a very good option. At 25 yards it is a great option. To engage (if necessary) from behind cover increases your chances of winning by a huge margin. Draw while in route to the cover.

And by winning I mean not getting shot. You can have two winners or two losers in a gun fight.

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Old 08-05-2008, 04:55 AM   #27
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check this video on youtube and see how fast I can draw my concealed carry![IMG]http://www.youtube.com/wa

tch?v=IZM_D2kq5fu[/IMG]
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Old 08-08-2008, 01:23 AM   #28
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Check out Bill Jordan's ability to pull back his coat, draw and fire, I believe in less than one second, sometimes close to 1/2 second.

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Old 08-08-2008, 02:31 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by robocop10mm View Post
+1 G21.45. The single best thing you can do in a gun fight to maximize your chances of victory is to first seek cover. At 3 feet, cover is not a very good option. At 25 yards it is a great option. To engage (if necessary) from behind cover increases your chances of winning by a huge margin. Draw while in route to the cover.

And by winning I mean not getting shot. You can have two winners or two losers in a gun fight.
Well, while I'm familiar with this school of thought, it's been my own life experience that most people who will attempt to use a pistol against you are, (in two words) 'ambush predators'. It's pretty tough to get to hard cover when: (1) The protagonists are well within 20 yards of each other. (2) Christian morality, and common law demand that you give the other guy an opportunity to make his murderous intentions clear before you, so much as, show a weapon. (Not so true for cops; but, very true for civilians!)

To date, my own solution to this problem has been to apply a higher degree of personal experience to the situation than the other guy was able to immediately cope with. About the only time I'd attempt to move for hard cover, first, is IF I were to clearly recognize that the other guy is attempting to do the same thing. After more than 50 years of playing, 'gun games', I don't carry a high capacity, long barreled 45 acp pistol for no good reason.

All successful gunfighting involves 3 principal obstacles that every pistolero must be both skilled and fortunate enough to overcome: time, distance, and the other gunman. Often any attempt to begin a gunfight by immediately moving to cover, violates the first principal of time working against you. Sure, you might catch some slack in a rifle fight; but, with pistols it's, almost always, up close and personal.






(If you really want to increase your chances, wear that vest!)
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Old 08-14-2008, 12:52 AM   #30
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500 rounds - two and one half weeks. I bad !

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