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Old 02-22-2008, 07:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanker60A3 View Post
1.77 seconds
2 rounds from a Wilson Combat 45 CQB
Range - 3 yards
230 FMJ factory load 850 fps
Wilson Combat Practical holster
Sig Tac vest as cover garment
1.94 seconds if you count the third head shot
Is that how you walk around everyday? If not, that time means nothing...
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Old 02-23-2008, 06:13 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tanker60A3 View Post
1.77 seconds
2 rounds from a Wilson Combat 45 CQB
Range - 3 yards
230 FMJ factory load 850 fps
Wilson Combat Practical holster
Sig Tac vest as cover garment
1.94 seconds if you count the third head shot
How about at 30 yards and in jeans, with your t-shirt tucked in over an IWB holster? It seems like a more reasonable engagement range and more likely attire to me.

2 seconds to pull, point and squeeze off 2 rounds? It sounds cool on paper, but when you actually think about what goes into just dropping 2 shots into a target at 10 feet, while wearing ideal clothing, it suddenly becomes pretty mundane. At 10 feet, I don't even have to take the time to consciously aim, just clear leather and squeeze off 3 rounds. That gives me a shot to the groin, a shot center mass and a shot near the skull. Hell, to make those shots, I don't even really need to attempt to control the pistol.
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Old 06-01-2008, 04:50 AM   #13
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At 7 1/2 yards from an open-top OTB Kydex holster I've been repeatedly timed at between 1.45 and 1.65 seconds for shots that hit inside the target's C zone. (Two hands; and, yes, I was aiming.)





PS: I don't do speed work from concealment or from out of an IWB rig. Guess I'll never know just how much slower I am until that day finally arrives when I need to find out!

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Old 06-01-2008, 06:11 AM   #14
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I've never timed myself with my concealed carry piece, but from my duty gun from a triple retention holster on a man sized target at 7 yards in 1.44 seconds. I did this 2 days ago during a training exercise. I'm sure I can improve with a little practice.

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Old 06-16-2008, 06:06 PM   #15
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Don't mean to sound egotistical or anything, but almost 4 seconds to draw and fire at contact distance is way too long. You need to practice on getting your carry piece cover out of the way with your weak hand and drawing smoothly with your strong hand. Many more advanced class have a prerequisite for drawing from concealment and firing two rounds center mass at 3 yds in under 2 seconds. This is pretty much the standard that one needs to be able to do. Always use your daily carry rig and work from the holster when you go to the range. Some ranges will not allow this and it is ashame. I would try to find one that does, of course, I am fortunate enough to have my own pistol range in my backyard

The 30 yd shot might be fun and a challenge, but serves no purpose in qualifying concealed carry use. A 30 yd shot by a concealed carry holder would be torn apart in court. That is 90 ft, more than enough distance to disengage the attacker and get free. From that distance you would be better served acting as a recon for responding officers, or getting closer.

These are my theories, and I hold steadfast to them. It kind of goes without saying I see no use for anti personnel "sniper rifles" for SHTF use also, unless your plan is for hunting game. Shooting zombies from a distance is going to get anybody in a heap of mess.

BTW, in a recent Ultimate Tactical Defense class I participated in, draw, fire two rounds center mass from a distance of 3 yds, 1.28. Use flash sighting.

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Old 06-16-2008, 06:21 PM   #16
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I have to agree with eng208. 30 yards would be tough to justify and even if you could, cover should be the first thing you seek, not drawing a concealed weapon and taking a 30 yard aimed shot. I think "imminent threat" would quickly go out the window. At that distance the best speed drill to practice is running. Draw on the way to cover or once you get there, even if, for some reason, you are advancing.

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Old 06-16-2008, 11:32 PM   #17
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I have to completely disagree with jeepcreep927 and eng208 here .

With todays mass murders and thrill killers/robbers I think the 30 yard shot has more validity than playing "Quick Draw McGraw" from a concealed position for your average CCW holder .

The vast majority of times when the person is the main/only intended victim of a holdup unless caught completely unaware because he/she wasn't paying any attention to their surroundings events will often be obviously unfolding negating a , Wild West Fast Gun Slingers skills .

Recently the average civilian faces far more dangers in situations that a long range shots far more probable with the recent Mall , School , Restaurant , and other public venue mass victim shootings .

The lady down in Texas "Kayleen Texas ?" who's name escapes me who went on to become a Congress women after losing her parents in a restaurant shooting , experience comes to mind . They were seated and eating when the robbers entered and began randomly shooting and killing the customers .

If I recall from her story when the carnage began they shooters backs were facing her as they were shooting customers at the other end of the restaurant , had she had he gun in her instead of in the car she could have easily "Taken out " at least one shooter prior to him turning his attention to her section of seating but the shot would have been at a longer range than most "Experts" insist you must train at .

In the recent Church shooting that was ended by a lady security guard she heard the shots far from her position and drew her weapon long before even seeing the shooter , same thing in Utah in which an off duty Police officer was the hero of the day . Neither of these were at the short distances the "Experts" insist on in training .

I think recent events have shown your just as if not more likely to be in a stores isles putting can goods in your shopping cart or strolling a Malls open area as walking in a dark parking garage when bad things unfold .

In my opinion having a weapon available on your person is far more important in the real world than quick draw skills and having all of these so called experts running around insisting otherwise is nothing but a detriment to our cause of self protection .

Why ? Because most people even on duty Police never really have these skills and many more people due to physical reasons "something as simple as Arthritis in the hands even a mild case" never will , yet to deny them the ability of self defense is insane just because they can't draw and fire X# of shots in 1 1/2 -2 seconds .

Just as men and women Homesteading in the Wilderness 150 years ago managed to defend themselves from hostile Indians and preditory animals without the ability to draw fast so does a person in this day in age have the ability to defend themselves from street crime .

Having all of these wonderful "Experts" running around insisting to the contrary is nothing but foolishness and a case of us laying a trap for ourselves to fall into . How long will it be before the Politicians who never supported CCW laws in the first place and wish to destroy them take notice of all these "Experts" and make these skills a requirement in a test that must be passed to even get a CCW permit ?

If these skills are to be taught fine but , it needs to be stressed they are NOT applicable to everyday self defense and are an advanced skills course aimed more at experts who make their living carrying a gun .

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Old 06-17-2008, 02:11 AM   #18
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Big001, You are, of course, referring to the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre that occurred in October, 1991, at Killeen, Texas. There was only one crazed and suicidal gunman involved: George Hennard. He used two 9mm handguns, a Glock G-17 and a Ruger P-89, to summarily execute 23 people and wound 20 more.

Only one of the lunch guests had a weapon, Suzanna Gratia Hupp; but, in compliance with existing Texas state law at the time, her pistol was locked inside the glove compartment of her vehicle and unavailable for self-defense. Hennard murdered both of her parents that afternoon - Her father when he tried to fight him off with his bare hands; and, her mother as she knelt on the floor, cradling her dying husband’s head in her hands.

In Wild Bill Hickok’s first, ‘fast draw’ duel, he shot David Tutt through the heart at better than 50 yards distance. Tutt fired first and completely missed Hickok; Wild Bill, by his own account, ‘took careful aim’ and shot Tutt dead with one shot.

There is, also, recent investigative evidence from retired Sheriff’s Deputy and firearms trainer Dave Spaulding to the effect that those who tend to survive pistol fights are often the first to engage and tend to begin shooting at distances well beyond the more commonly stated 7 1/2 to 10 yards. (Which Spaulding further identifies as, ‘that distance at which too many of the right people often lose gunfights!’)

Can’t really say whether or not I’m a proponent of the fast draw. I am, however, a strong believer in anticipating the event, not waiting to be absolutely positive, and acting accordingly.

Quote:
Always use your daily carry rig and work from the holster when you go to the range.
This is, like, the last thing I would do! Fast draw range work requires an OTB holster. Using anything else is asking to, sooner or later, take one in the groin or down the leg. Neither have I, even once in my entire life, seen someone use an IWB, cross draw, or shoulder holster during a competitive pistol match.

It's always OTB, on the gun side.
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Old 06-17-2008, 02:13 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by BigO01 View Post
I have to completely disagree with jeepcreep927 and eng208 here .

With todays mass murders and thrill killers/robbers I think the 30 yard shot has more validity than playing "Quick Draw McGraw" from a concealed position for your average CCW holder .

The vast majority of times when the person is the main/only intended victim of a holdup unless caught completely unaware because he/she wasn't paying any attention to their surroundings events will often be obviously unfolding negating a , Wild West Fast Gun Slingers skills .

Recently the average civilian faces far more dangers in situations that a long range shots far more probable with the recent Mall , School , Restaurant , and other public venue mass victim shootings .

The lady down in Texas "Kayleen Texas ?" who's name escapes me who went on to become a Congress women after losing her parents in a restaurant shooting , experience comes to mind . They were seated and eating when the robbers entered and began randomly shooting and killing the customers .

If I recall from her story when the carnage began they shooters backs were facing her as they were shooting customers at the other end of the restaurant , had she had he gun in her instead of in the car she could have easily "Taken out " at least one shooter prior to him turning his attention to her section of seating but the shot would have been at a longer range than most "Experts" insist you must train at .

In the recent Church shooting that was ended by a lady security guard she heard the shots far from her position and drew her weapon long before even seeing the shooter , same thing in Utah in which an off duty Police officer was the hero of the day . Neither of these were at the short distances the "Experts" insist on in training .

I think recent events have shown your just as if not more likely to be in a stores isles putting can goods in your shopping cart or strolling a Malls open area as walking in a dark parking garage when bad things unfold .

In my opinion having a weapon available on your person is far more important in the real world than quick draw skills and having all of these so called experts running around insisting otherwise is nothing but a detriment to our cause of self protection .

Why ? Because most people even on duty Police never really have these skills and many more people due to physical reasons "something as simple as Arthritis in the hands even a mild case" never will , yet to deny them the ability of self defense is insane just because they can't draw and fire X# of shots in 1 1/2 -2 seconds .

Just as men and women Homesteading in the Wilderness 150 years ago managed to defend themselves from hostile Indians and preditory animals without the ability to draw fast so does a person in this day in age have the ability to defend themselves from street crime .

Having all of these wonderful "Experts" running around insisting to the contrary is nothing but foolishness and a case of us laying a trap for ourselves to fall into . How long will it be before the Politicians who never supported CCW laws in the first place and wish to destroy them take notice of all these "Experts" and make these skills a requirement in a test that must be passed to even get a CCW permit ?

If these skills are to be taught fine but , it needs to be stressed they are NOT applicable to everyday self defense and are an advanced skills course aimed more at experts who make their living carrying a gun .
While I understand what you are saying, and there is some validity to it, I have to ask, do you know how far 30 yds is? We're talking almost a warehouse length. No restaurant, store, or anything else short of a mall main passageway would come close to being 30 yds long, 90ft straight distance.

Still going to be hard to justify why you didn't move closer to make a safer shot.

BTW, "She" is congresswoman Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, now retired from political service, who was responsible for the current Tx carry laws and the amendments to many other state carry laws that are very similar. The CCW permit holders all across the nation owe her a huge amount of appreciation for the rights they have. It was at Luby's Restaurant in Killeen Tx in 1991 that set things in motion for her to be very powerful. A very unfortunate event for many families, but think of the families that have been spared due to the events of Congresswoman Hupp.
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Old 06-17-2008, 05:54 AM   #20
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NO ! Is 30 yards a long way ?

I wouldn't know as you see I am the son of a multi trillionaire and have a crack team of carpenters that quickly build temporary walls for me where ever I go so I never have to look beyond an exact 25 yards . Dad didn't want me straining my eyes don't ya know !! PLEASE give me a break .


You ever shopped at a SAM's Club ? A Walmart or Kmart or a Home Depot , a Lowes perhaps ? Better yet have you ever gone to a local park on a weekend ? 90 feet in a straight shot ain't hard to find , at least not in stores near me .

All sarcasm aside from not only what I have read in magazines articles with true stories of armed citizens and a couple of my own experiences two scenarios cover 99.9% of most civilian situations . Either one the person is aware and sees the trouble coming and their body language usually ends the confrontation before it begins , placing ones hand on even an unseen gun in preparation to draw will usually make a punk back down and go find another target , or two an armed felon has a gun in your face before you can react or even know it's coming in which case trying to draw and fire is almost suicidal and most people will hand over money etc. and hope for the best and wait for an opening to get their gun .

While the 30 yard mark may be as unusual as a quick draw contest I suspect there's a little more distance than most train for in the rare instances a civilian uses their gun and the distance will get farther as we have more mass shootings in public places .

As far as justification goes I doubt there will be many questions asked when a person stops a mass shooting in a public place regardless of the distance the civilian shooter was unless they unleashed a hail of bullets that hit just as many unintended targets as the assailant had already shot .

Simple fact is the firearms presence in the hands of a determined person stops trouble without ever being fired the vast majority of the time and it is my opinion that people would be far better served practicing accuracy starting with the gun in hand or doing a slow draw rather than having the distraction of thinking drawing from a holster quickly is needed .

Fast draws and hip shooters all look cool in the Westerns but that's all nothing but make believe , they use blanks we use bullets they do takes over and over again till they get it right , if we ever need to use a gun in self defense may only do it once in a lifetime , we better make damn sure we don't ruin our lives by missing the target at 10 or even 50 feet and kill some unintended person playing cowboy with a 17 shot 9mm and spraying and praying bullets everywhere .

Like Tom Selleck's character said in "Quigly Down Under" "This ain't Dodge City , and you ain't Bill Hickock" .

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