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Old 06-13-2008, 08:19 PM   #11
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I am not trying to make this into a Weaver vs. Isosceles debate. I have learned a long time ago that one cannot win that debate. All I'm saying is his preference for shooting Weaver is not causing him to miss the target.

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Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
No, I did NOT say that - You did!

However since you brought the subject up, yes, very few shooters are now doing things exactly like Cooper did. Heck, I own the identical competition holster - identical - to the one that Jeff Cooper used to wear. I don't use it anymore, though. Holster design, like so many other things, has moved on! It might help you to remember that Big Bear was a long time ago!
But you said:
Quote:
...shooting from Weaver WILL definitely have an adverse effect on the bullet's POI...
Now, to me, that implies that everyone shooting Weaver will be incredibly inaccurate. Again, are you saying that everyone that Cooper taught was inaccurate while shooting in rapid fire?


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Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
The truth is that an inane comment like; 'Front sight, press' is meaningless! It isn't going to teach a shooter anything. If you really knew the first thing about pistol training you'd realize that there are two ways to learn how to shoot: (1) Fire lots and lots of bullets and listen to inept (or greedy) instructors who parrot obscure remarks like; 'Front sight, press' or (2) train with someone who's seen all the mistakes, had to work his way through many of them with a wide variety of different students, and knows how to zero in on the root cause of many different shooting problems.

(That wouldn't be you, now, would it?)
You're right, it's not going to teach anyone anything. It is a mnomenic device, designed to remind the student as to what he should concentrate on. It should be used to reinforce the two primary fundamentals of marksmanship: sight picture and trigger manipulation.

In regards to your question, I would be in number 2. As such, I have found that most problems have nothing to do with the student's stance or grip. 90% of the time, the student is not concentrating on the front sight until after the shot breaks. The other 10% of the time, the shooter is beating the crap out of the trigger.


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'Front sight, press' requires everything of the student; and, gives him nothing in return.
What does it require? Remembering to concentrate on the front sight? That's pretty much a standard for marksmanship.


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All you're telling me by posting this nonsense is that: (1) You are prone to holding strong, ill-considered opinions. (2) You like to argue; and, (3) don't know the first thing about what you're supposed to be talking about.
And all you're telling me by posting your nonsense is you don't understand how guns and sights work; you miss the forest for the trees, allowing yourself to get bogged down in trivial matters, but ignoring the elephant in the room; you spend a lot of time on gun websites.



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Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
Wow, that's really something! But, who cares?
That was a text book example of what is called an anecdote or war story. These, if used sparingly and appropriately, work incredibly well to illustrate certain points. This one was used to illustrate the point that shooting a pistol is not dependent upon standing in a certain way, holding the gun just right, or wearing the right set of underwear (I am aware that you never said that; since you seem to be missing many of my rhetorical elements, this gross-exaggeration is meant to illustrate the minutiae which you are focusing on, most of which has nothing to do with marksmanship).

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Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
What? Placing the front sight on COM guarantees nothing - Nothing! I don't know who you are; but, you, sure as heck, aren't someone who should be training anyone else in how to use a pistol. (And, if you are, I feel sorry for those who are unfortunate enough to be your students.)
We've got to be talking about something completely different here, because the part I highlighted in red has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on the internet. If the shooter is keeping the front sight on the target, and doesn't jerk or slap the trigger, then wherever that front sight goes is where the bullet goes. If he's putting too much pressure on the left side of the gun, the front sight is still center mass. Unless the shooter is somehow bending the barrel, the bullets will go where that front sight is located. What he is doing, is most likely, trying to spot his rounds, and changing his focus from the front sight to the target.

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How, may I ask, do you know that? Such keen insight into bullets that strike with a left POI from a LEFT-HANDED shooter is contained nowhere in the Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Manual. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you; and, the more you say, the more obvious it becomes.
I base that on Andy Stanford's Surgical Speed Shooting page 65, and James Yeager's Shooting Missology DVD, at the 27 minute mark.
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:32 PM   #12
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I am not trying to make this into a Weaver vs. Isosceles debate. I have learned a long time ago that one cannot win that debate. All I'm saying is his preference for shooting Weaver is not causing him to miss the target.
First, experience has taught me not to become involved in long drawn out internet arguments. So this is going to be my last reply inside this thread. If you want to fight with me you’re just going to have to start again somewhere else.

You seem to have completely overlooked the fact that the OP’s original question requires a remedial reply. Who cares if you, or I know how to shoot? Who cares if you, or I know how to take up slack and press a trigger? Who cares if you, or I understand not only HOW TO WATCH A FRONT SIGHT but, also, HOW TO CONTROL THAT FRONT SIGHT while watching it?

I didn’t write those replies for you; instead, in an attempt to answer a specific question about a specific problem - I wrote them for the OP.

In this regard, yes, a Weaver stance very well might be causing the OP to throw his shots to the left side of the target – He, as much, as admits this when he confesses to being jammed up on his left-side. I know I wouldn’t attempt to gunfight this way; and, I’m starting to suspect that neither would you.

The big drawback to Weaver is that it lacks flexibility; you can’t work well with it when you’re either moving fast, fatigued, or under another form of stress.

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But you said: Now, to me, that implies that everyone shooting Weaver will be incredibly inaccurate. Again, are you saying that everyone that Cooper taught was inaccurate while shooting in rapid fire?
No, not everyone! Among others Jack Weaver certainly knew how to make it work; and, from where pistolcraft is today, it was a good beginning that (almost) compelled modern pistoleros to advance to those better forms of handgun-presentation that many of us are presently using.

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You're right, it's not going to teach anyone anything. It is a mnemonic device, designed to remind the student as to what he should concentrate on. It should be used to reinforce the two primary fundamentals of marksmanship: sight picture and trigger manipulation.
I have no problem with this for any student who’s far enough along to be primarily interested in tightening up his groups. As a matter of fact, I go through a similar mnemonic regimen before each range session myself.

The salient point is whether or not I’d offer; ‘Front sight, press’ as a possible remedy to a student who kept smacking 9 or 3 o’clock on his target? The correct answer is, of course, I would not.

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In regards to your question, I would be in number 2. As such, I have found that most problems have nothing to do with the student's stance or grip. 90% of the time, the student is not concentrating on the front sight until after the shot breaks. The other 10% of the time, the shooter is beating the crap out of the trigger.
All right, if you say you’re in the second category, then, I believe you; but, at the same time, I suspect the students you are dealing with tend to be older and farther along than the OP, himself. I do, however, disagree that the ability to hit well with a pistol has either little to do, or less to do, with a student’s stance or grip.

Getting students turned around, and straightening out their stance and grip is every bit as important as learning how to focus on a front sight. As a matter of fact, I would even go as far as to say, it’s pointless to attempt to get a student to concentrate on his front sight until everything else is as correct and fully functional as it really ought to be!

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What does it require? Remembering to concentrate on the front sight? That's pretty much a standard for marksmanship.
I doubt that either one of us has any real argument with that statement.

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And all you're telling me by posting your nonsense is you don't understand how guns and sights work; you miss the forest for the trees, allowing yourself to get bogged down in trivial matters, but ignoring the elephant in the room; you spend a lot of time on gun websites.
Ha, ha, ha! I, also, spend (or, at least, I was until very recently) over $450.00 each month on ammunition alone. This being said, I’m not going to allow you to drag me into bragging on the internet. Suffice it to say that I am – and long have been – as confident with firearms as you are audacious in your remarks and opinions. ‘Missing’ anything isn’t something that I’ve ever been famous for.

Quote:
That was a text book example of what is called an anecdote or war story. These, if used sparingly and appropriately, work incredibly well to illustrate certain points. This one was used to illustrate the point that shooting a pistol is not dependent upon standing in a certain way, holding the gun just right, or wearing the right set of underwear.
The remark remains self-serving and addresses the OP’s marksmanship dilemma in no way. It would have been better if you had left this unsaid.

Quote:
I am aware that you never said that; since you seem to be missing many of my rhetorical elements, this gross-exaggeration is meant to illustrate the minutiae which you are focusing on, most of which has nothing to do with marksmanship)
You’re trying really hard to pin that, ‘missing’ label on me – Aren’t you!

Quote:
We've got to be talking about something completely different here, because the part I highlighted in red has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen written on the internet.
Really? You need to get out more! (Well, either, that or read more of your own stuff.)

Quote:
If the shooter is keeping the front sight on the target, and doesn't jerk or slap the trigger, then wherever that front sight goes is where the bullet goes. If he's putting too much pressure on the left side of the gun, the front sight is still center mass. Unless the shooter is somehow bending the barrel, the bullets will go where that front sight is located. What he is doing, is most likely, trying to spot his rounds, and changing his focus from the front sight to the target.
Here, you allow me to tar you with your own brush! That’s really an incredibly na´ve remark on your part. I’ve worked with a lot of firearms instructors over all of the 5 marksmanship disciplines in which I’m certified. (And, one or two in which I’m not, but nonetheless excel.) I can’t think of any line instructor or coach I’ve worked with who would agree with what you just stated.

Too many of the shooters I know or have known have, or had, problems that are not going to be adequately addressed by any, ‘front sight placebo’.

As a matter of fact, if – IF – what you say were true, then, as long as everyone did nothing more than watched his front sight and pressed the trigger …. what? Nobody would ever miss anything! That simply isn’t true, though, is it. Stance, grip, trigger press, concentration, and focus are all distinct parts of the marksmanship equation.

I’m, also, able to tell you that so is, ‘recoil management’. Something I do particularly well; and have twice received applause for from police officers in the audience who were impressed with the speed at which I’m able to accurately fire. (Took me years to learn how to do; and I’m, also, one of the few people I know who’s able to teach it – True!)

That’s it! No more internet argument.

Last edited by G21.45; 06-14-2008 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 07-14-2008, 08:18 AM   #13
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So I fixed my sight picture problem. Turns out I was putting a little too much finger on the trigger and thus pulling the trigger enough to make my shots go left.
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Old 07-20-2008, 07:08 PM   #14
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Your problem is simple it the way your placing your finger and pulling the trigger.There is a website with targets available that you can print out
that has the appropriate problem in relation to where the rounds are hitting.
It tells you what you are doing wrong!
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Old 09-11-2008, 09:01 PM   #15
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DO you have a website address for that?
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Old 10-26-2008, 03:19 AM   #16
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Correction Target diagrams have been posted on threads on this very site . I'll try to find you a link.

Note : Todd Jarrett recommends releasing the trigger fully after every shot so that your habits will work with any gun and any trigger system .

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Old 10-26-2008, 07:22 PM   #17
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Sounds like you are jerking your fingers.There is a target available on glock talk
I think that tells you what you are doing wrong by where you are hitting the target.I too tend to hit to the left of the target. I tend to hold the trigger to tight and jerk a bit .When I loosen my hands to a point of being so relaxed I
start hitting the center of target.
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Old 12-25-2008, 11:40 PM   #18
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My Model 26 would shoot about 2 inches left at 50 feet. I ended up moving the rear sight to fix it. It isn't perfectly centered on the slide, but the holes in the target are centered. That's what counts. If you are confident in your grip, trigger control and sight picture, you may want to do the same.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:00 AM   #19
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finger plcement and trigger control, that was my first guess. important thing is that you were able to correct the problem even though people were arguing on what was right and wrong
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:58 PM   #20
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#1. Over the many years I've been teaching new shooters, what a number of us instructors found was that the Weaver works great in tactical situations when using cover. Trouble with the Weaver is that guys who have big shoulders and women with big breasts don't do well with the Weaver because their back muscles will begin to become spasmodic causing the shooter to jerk. Once a shooter gets into the Weaver, they normally lock up pretty tight. After a couple of minutes their muscles begin to slowly knot up and jerk a little bit.

#2. We got to the point that we instructors told our police cadets to not use the Weaver shooting stance if they had broad backs, were built like football players or had large breasts. We had the shooters use the Isosceles stance and they did much better and were able to qualify.

#3. As a general rule, people who have stray rounds or target hits generally move in the direction of the hand that they're using because they're pulling with their wrists or back of the hand. So, if you're left handed you may be pulling to the left which is why those bullets hits are going to the left. Right handed people pull to the right. Neither group of shooters will feel themselves flinch when they pull the sights slightly off target. A person watching the shooter will often see the shooter slightly move the sight off just before the gun fires because the movement needed to pull the trigger back causes this flinch. It is so subtle that most shooters don't even know that they're doing it until somebody tells them or confirms it (videotape works well) for them. After they understand what's happening they then concentrate more on the front sight to eliminate the movement.
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