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Old 06-09-2008, 06:07 AM   #1
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Default Glock Sight Picture Question?

I have a G17 which I love, but I've been having trouble the last two range sessions I've been on in regards to my sights.

Everytime I shoot 10 or 15 yards I line up my sights perfectly, but the rounds keep going to the left of the bulls eye and never in dead center. I'm a left handed shooter and shoot Weaver.

Standard G17 with no upgrades.
Trigger pull is consistent and nothing that I've seen or the range master sees which will make them think it's the trigger pull.

Question is this. Have any you Glock owners on here ever had trouble with their sights moving just a fraction or so?

Thanks

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Old 06-09-2008, 08:56 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by brointheknow View Post
.... Everytime I shoot 10 or 15 yards I line up my sights perfectly, but the rounds keep going to the left of the bulls eye and never in dead center. I'm a left handed shooter and shoot Weaver. ....
Sights off? Why, are either of your sights physically loose? Does your rear sight appear to be centered on the slide? (You might try getting a sight pusher and moving the rear sight ever so slightly to the right; but, I don't think this is, really, going to do you any good.)

So, the Range Master sees nothing wrong? OK! Then, 'Why' hasn't anyone told you that: (1) 15 yards ain't going to tell you a whole lot about what's wrong; and, (2) in all likelihood, it's your grip that is off!

The principal culprit I'd look for here is whether or not you're tightening your fingers (milking the grip) while you are squeezing the trigger. This is a very common problem with shooters who are not used to firing pistols with trigger safeties.

There is, also, a secondary issue with the thumb of the shooting hand. Some shooters simply apply too much thumb pressure to the pistol's frame. If you really want to check your sights then, sit down, sandbag your wrists, (or brace them on top of your range bag) and with both your wrists AND the pistol firmly braced shoot a few slow-fire sets at distances beyond 15 yards.

I'd, also, be curious to know whether or not you're firing from the trigger's reset position? Personally, I'll bet the problem is with your grip. (Weaver, by the way, is old technology. Nobody who knows what he's doing with a pistol is using it, anymore, and with good reason, too.)

Your gun hand should be holding that Glock in a front-to-back grip just like you were holding a pack of loose playing cards by the edges. Your support hand should be jammed up tight underneath the triggerguard. 60% of the grip pressure should come from your support hand which exerts pressure in, both, a backward and a downward direction. 40% of the grip pressure should come from your gun hand which acts, more or less, as a captive of the support hand. When you front the target, your elbows should be fairly straight and even.

You direct the pistol's muzzle with your shoulders and absorb recoil from the elbows - not your wrists. Here, 'Lurper' should be able to straighten you right out:

Lurper, On The Proper Grip
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Old 06-11-2008, 03:18 AM   #3
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Sights off? Why, are either of your sights physically loose? Does your rear sight appear to be centered on the slide? (You might try getting a sight pusher and moving the rear sight ever so slightly to the right; but, I don't think this is, really, going to do you any good.)

So, the Range Master sees nothing wrong? OK! Then, 'Why' hasn't anyone told you that: (1) 15 yards ain't going to tell you a whole lot about what's wrong; and, (2) in all likelihood, it's your grip that is off!

The principal culprit I'd look for here is whether or not you're tightening your fingers (milking the grip) while you are squeezing the trigger. This is a very common problem with shooters who are not used to firing pistols with trigger safeties.

There is, also, a secondary issue with the thumb of the shooting hand. Some shooters simply apply too much thumb pressure to the pistol's frame. If you really want to check your sights then, sit down, sandbag your wrists, (or brace them on top of your range bag) and with both your wrists AND the pistol firmly braced shoot a few slow-fire sets at distances beyond 15 yards.

I'd, also, be curious to know whether or not you're firing from the trigger's reset position? Personally, I'll bet the problem is with your grip. (Weaver, by the way, is old technology. Nobody who knows what he's doing with a pistol is using it, anymore, and with good reason, too.)

Your gun hand should be holding that Glock in a front-to-back grip just like you were holding a pack of loose playing cards by the edges. Your support hand should be jammed up tight underneath the triggerguard. 60% of the grip pressure should come from your support hand which exerts pressure in, both, a backward and a downward direction. 40% of the grip pressure should come from your gun hand which acts, more or less, as a captive of the support hand. When you front the target, your elbows should be fairly straight and even.

You direct the pistol's muzzle with your shoulders and absorb recoil from the elbows - not your wrists. Here, 'Lurper' should be able to straighten you right out:

Lurper, On The Proper Grip
The rear sight looks perfectly centered and nothing is loose. I've done everything you've stated, but still no luck on centering the rounds. The reason I shoot Weaver is because I'm about to become a police officer out here in California if all goes well and I don't want myself to be a huge target.

Also, I do use the trigger reset and all my shots still go in the same place. I do notice that I do keep my left arm stiff as a board when shooting. Could this be an issue as you stated?
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Old 06-11-2008, 04:29 AM   #4
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The rear sight looks perfectly centered and nothing is loose. I've done everything you've stated, but still no luck on centering the rounds. The reason I shoot Weaver is because I'm about to become a police officer out here in California if all goes well and I don't want myself to be a huge target.

Also, I do use the trigger reset and all my shots still go in the same place. I do notice that I do keep my left arm stiff as a board when shooting. Could this be an issue as you stated?
Well, quite frankly, I don't know of any modern police agency who is still teaching Weaver - Modified Weaver, maybe, but certainly not the classic Weaver grip and stance. (But, then again, you did say; 'California' so who knows what's going on in that Communist state?)

Yes, yes, yes! When you're working with a pistol at speed in repetitive fire, you should be firing from your shoulders and absorbing the recoil with your elbows. Did you look at Lurper's video about, 'Proper grip'. He carries the concept all the way back to the shoulders just like he should.

If you jam yourself up on one side, (The left in your case) then your tendons and muscle reflexes will pull your shots off to that side. You need to FRONT THE TARGET WITH BOTH SHOULDERS.

Do NOT withdraw your strong side foot into a classic Weaver stance. Instead, work the pistol with BOTH SHOULDERS AND WITH BOTH ELBOWS. When you do this correctly, you will discover the triangle that's formed between both shoulders with the pistol at the apex becomes YOUR RIFLE STOCK!

Your stance will be very solid. Even under significant stress, your muscular/skeletal reflexes will remain balanced. You will be better able to work with rapid fire recoil; AND, you will have more control over your front sight, too.

You, also, need to remember that you are going to be wearing a bulletproof vest. Every vest's greatest vulnerability is at the armpit and side panels. In a gunfight, you do NOT want to expose either of your sides to the other gunman's fire! You do not! (Allow the vest to do its job!)

Relax, front the target, jam your support hand up tight underneath the triggerguard, and then slightly rotate your support hand downward in order to line up the pistol's front sight with your (dominant) gun hand eye. Make sure your hand pressure on the pistol is strictly front-to-back with the support hand, also, contributing a certain amount of downward pressure to the grip - especially during rapid fire.

Correctly firing from reset is almost an, 'art'. Ideally, after the shot goes off, you want your trigger finger to be ever so slightly ahead of the reset point - with the trigger actually chasing it forward. At the reset point, you should bring your trigger finger - again, ever so slightly - backward into the trigger in order to fire the next shot. (This takes some practice to learn.)

The only other thing I'd caution you about is; 'Watch that right thumb!' Don't use it to apply any sideways pressure to the pistol's frame. (Again, just like Lurper teaches!)

Good luck to you, Sir.
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Old 06-12-2008, 03:33 AM   #5
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Thanks bro that helps immensely!

Yes California is a communist state for sure. The Liberals are choking our rights. I live in San Jose and I'm not far from San Francisco. Home of the illegals and land of those that are scared of guns.

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Old 06-12-2008, 09:18 PM   #6
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1.) Your trigger-pull is probably good. Most likely what you are doing is flinching with the shot. Try having someone load your magazine with a few dummy rounds intermixed with your live ammo. If the gun moves, you are moving anticipating the recoil.

2.) Shooting from Weaver will not have any effect on where your bullets go. While there are very good benefits from the modern Isosceles, particularly while wearing body armor, it is no more accurate than any other stance.

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Old 06-13-2008, 04:41 AM   #7
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.... Everytime I shoot 10 or 15 yards I line up my sights perfectly, but the rounds keep going to the left of the bulls eye and never in dead center. I'm a left handed shooter and shoot Weaver. ....
Nope! You need to get the facts straight! 'Brointheknow' is NOT flinching; and, shooting from Weaver WILL definitely have an adverse effect on the bullet's POI - Especially, when trying to fire quickly or while under stress. Not one top - as in, 'nobody' - IPSC or IDPA championship shooter is presently using Weaver.

(And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Lou Chiodo, who could have taught the California Highway Patrol anything he felt like, never taught Weaver to the CHP.)
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:51 AM   #8
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Nope! You need to get the facts straight! 'Brointheknow' is NOT flinching; and, shooting from Weaver WILL definitely have an adverse effect on the bullet's POI - Especially, when trying to fire quickly or while under stress. Not one top - as in, 'nobody' - IPSC or IDPA championship shooter is presently using Weaver.

(And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Lou Chiodo, who could have taught the California Highway Patrol anything he felt like, never taught Weaver to the CHP.)
1.) So you're telling me that all of those people that Jeff Cooper taught how to shoot were all shooting to the left of the intended target? All the time? I find that hard to believe.

2.) You are over-complicating things. The mantra that is normally used to help people remember what to do to hit the target is not "Stance, Equal Pressure with Both hands, Meaty Pad of the Finger on the Trigger, Focus on the Front Sight, Check your Stance again, Press the trigger." All you hear is "Front Sight, Press." Why? Because that is all you need to worry about to get your hits on target. I have hit a man-sized target, laying on my back, feet pointed away from the target, at a distance of 25 yards. Not just once, but for 2 whole magazines. That is not a stance that will ever be taught for someone to shoot in. All I did was concentrate on my front sight, and apply a slow, steady pressure to the trigger.

It doesn't matter if he's putting too much pressure on one side or the other with his pistol. His front sight should still be center mass. If it's not center mass, then the bullet is still going where he's aiming. At some point in the firing sequence, he is moving his front sight off of the target.

Specifically what he is doing is not following-through, although this is usually thrown in with a flinch. He is not concentrating on the target until after the shot breaks. Right before the shot breaks, he is looking up to see if he hit the target.

3.) You're right, no major IPSC or IDPA shooter uses Weaver anymore. In fact, not many people period use Weaver anymore (the only exception of major training schools would be Front Sight). But not because it's less accurate. The Modern Isosceles is better designed for movement, more natural for a person to get into, resists a frontal charge better, offers more protection if a person is wearing body armor, and makes it easier to engage multiple targets.

4.) And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Colonel Rex Applegate, who could have taught the OSS anything he felt like, never taught Isosceles to the OSS. And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Bill Jordan, who could have taught the US Border Patrol anything he felt like, never taught Isosceles to the USBP. And world-famous Firearms Training Officer Jeff Cooper, who could have taught the United States Marines anything he felt like, never taught Isosceles to the USMC.

You can drop big names and say that so and so is teaching such and such, and it's all moot. They all teach you the same two basic principles, manipulate the trigger in a smooth rearward pull, and use the same reference point every time, whether it's the sights or a consistent 3/4 hip position.

ETA: Chiodo never taught Isosceles either. He's using a modified Sykes-Fairbairn method. Before you drop big names to impress people, you should make sure that you know who you are referencing...
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:05 PM   #9
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brointheknow, you are probably pushing on the the trigger as you squeeze. if you're right handed this will cause the rounds to go to the left. i find myself doing it once in a while. take you time squeeze that trigger. inserting your finger a little bit more into the trigger guard sometimes helps depending on the size of your hand. also, practicing with a revolver also helps because of the heavier trigger pull.
weaver stance is obsolete. the weaver stance exposes the most vulnerable gaps in you body armor (sides). you should be squaring off with your target. none of this will affect shot placement however. i'd listen to G.21.

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Old 06-13-2008, 05:03 PM   #10
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1.) So you're telling me that all of those people that Jeff Cooper taught how to shoot were all shooting to the left of the intended target? All the time? I find that hard to believe.
No, I did NOT say that - You did!

However since you brought the subject up, yes, very few shooters are now doing things exactly like Cooper did. Heck, I own the identical competition holster - identical - to the one that Jeff Cooper used to wear. I don't use it anymore, though. Holster design, like so many other things, has moved on! It might help you to remember that Big Bear was a long time ago!

Quote:
2.) You are over-complicating (SIC) things. The mantra that is normally used to help people remember what to do to hit the target is not "Stance, Equal Pressure with Both hands, Meaty Pad of the Finger on the Trigger, Focus on the Front Sight, Check your Stance again, Press the trigger." All you hear is "Front Sight, Press."
Again, I didn't say most of those things either - You did! This is, no better than, your interpretation of what I said. It is, also, a gross over- simplification of the pistol shooting dynamic that isn't going to help anyone to learn how to handle a pistol, either, better or well.

Unfortunately the internet is, too often, full of bad advice; and, everybody has to weed their way through it. If I've seen it once, I've seen it a hundred times: Some posters make worthwhile contributions; and, others just come on-line in order to flex their muscles, show off, and argue. You know, statements like; 'I can lie on my back, point my toes away from the target, and blah, blah, blah .... '

HOW USEFUL!

Who, you might ask, is really the big loser with this sort of internet theatrics? Well .... that would be anyone who's sincerely interested in learning without having to endure didactic, 'mumbo-jumbo' like; 'Front sight, press!'

The truth is that an inane comment like; 'Front sight, press' is meaningless! It isn't going to teach a shooter anything. If you really knew the first thing about pistol training you'd realize that there are two ways to learn how to shoot: (1) Fire lots and lots of bullets and listen to inept (or greedy) instructors who parrot obscure remarks like; 'Front sight, press' or (2) train with someone who's seen all the mistakes, had to work his way through many of them with a wide variety of different students, and knows how to zero in on the root cause of many different shooting problems.

(That wouldn't be you, now, would it?)

'Front sight, press' requires everything of the student; and, gives him nothing in return. All you're telling me by posting this nonsense is that: (1) You are prone to holding strong, ill-considered opinions. (2) You like to argue; and, (3) don't know the first thing about what you're supposed to be talking about.

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Why? Because that is all you need to worry about to get your hits on target. I have hit a man-sized target, laying on my back, feet pointed away from the target, at a distance of 25 yards. Not just once, but for 2 whole magazines. That is not a stance that will ever be taught for someone to shoot in. All I did was concentrate on my front sight, and apply a slow, steady pressure to the trigger.
Wow, that's really something! But, who cares?

Quote:
It doesn't matter if he's putting too much pressure on one side or the other with his pistol. His front sight should still be center mass. If it's not center mass, then the bullet is still going where he's aiming. At some point in the firing sequence, he is moving his front sight off of the target.
What? Placing the front sight on COM guarantees nothing - Nothing! I don't know who you are; but, you, sure as heck, aren't someone who should be training anyone else in how to use a pistol. (And, if you are, I feel sorry for those who are unfortunate enough to be your students.)

Quote:
Specifically what he is doing is not following-through, although this is usually thrown in with a flinch. He is not concentrating on the target until after the shot breaks. Right before the shot breaks, he is looking up to see if he hit the target.
How, may I ask, do you know that? Such keen insight into bullets that strike with a left POI from a LEFT-HANDED shooter is contained nowhere in the Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Manual. You really don't know what you're talking about, do you; and, the more you say, the more obvious it becomes.

So, you like to argue - OK. I'm not going to dignify or lend credence to the rest of your post; and, I feel sorry for anyone else who doesn't know better than to take you seriously.






(One other thing: Now that you've confused the issue and ruined the thread, I'm going to let you have what little remains. Nice going!)
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