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Old 07-13-2013, 05:24 AM   #21
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Zoo keepers do sometimes get eaten by zoo animals.

There are two types of gun owners.

Folks that have experienced negligent discharges, and those that have never experienced negligent discharges, yet.

Some people say, they could never have a traffic accident, till they have one.

Pride go before the fall, is a wise old saying.

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Old 07-13-2013, 06:12 AM   #22
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Most cases of Glock leg come form a certain Glock with a particular mod
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Old 07-13-2013, 06:17 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by AR10
Zoo keepers do sometimes get eaten by zoo animals.

There are two types of gun owners.

Folks that have experienced negligent discharges, and those that have never experienced negligent discharges, yet.

Some people say, they could never have a traffic accident, till they have one.

Pride go before the fall, is a wise old saying.
So every gun owner will experience a ND? Tell us about yours since I have never had it happen.

Sorry AR10, sometimes you make good points and I agree with you but that statement is pure BS. Don't give NDs a chance to happen and they won't. The only way to do that is to follow the safety rules every time without exception.

Traffic accidents are a poor analogy because outside influences/other people can cause them or at least contribute. There's only one person who is responsible for their own safety when it comes to firearms, and that's the individual shooter. Zoo keepers are also a poor analogy. Whereas a lion can flip out and maul its trainer, guns are inanimate and have no instinct nor need for food.

I can say I will NEVER be the cause of a ND simply based on the fact that I follow the rules every time and respect the firearm.
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #24
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I own Glocks, nice firearms. The manufacturer thinks they are easier to shoot than some handguns. I accept that. Few restrictions from wanting to shoot, and shooting. One of the most simple, user friendly handguns ever made. We all admit that. Right?

That ease of use, comes with a price. Easy to use, is also easy to mess up. Can't have it one way, without having it both ways.
Do you want to know what I find funny about this whole Glock leg and ease of use argument? When Glock was first being introduced to police departments around the country, the overwhelming sentiment of the procurement and testing officers was that it functioned just like a revolver.

That was the main reason Glock was chosen over other pistols. It was believed that training the officers to use it would be easier and cheaper. Reliability, overall cost, and uniformity were all other considerations, but the shallow learning curve meant they would have a very short time period between purchase and deployment. Add to this the fact that Glock would send an instructor to the departments back then and it was a done deal.

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Kapelsohn noticed the discarded Glock. "You need to give it a chance," he said.

His words carried weight. Kapelsohn, who came from New Jersey, had a national reputation and heavy connections at the National Rifle Association. His credentials were unusual in the weapons-training business: He held a B.A. in English literature from Yale and a law degree from Harvard.

Kapelsohn's suggestion that the Austrian pistol be taken seriously proved prescient. Within a few days, "we were fighting over who was going to get the Glock," Rutherford said. "It's just like shooting a revolver, and that's what everybody liked about it. You pull it out, you pull the trigger, and you put it away. That was the beauty of it."
The Rutherford mentioned in the quote is now the sheriff for the Jacksonville, Florida Sheriffs Office.

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Old 07-13-2013, 12:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DrumJunkie
Most cases of Glock leg come form a certain Glock with a particular mod
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That is awesome.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:16 PM   #26
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I have not personally had a negligent discharge, but of the ones I have been witness to, or treated patients for, or been involved in their care, they break down like this, as well as my memory serves:

A buddy had an ND with my SKS by picking it up off the range bench after loading it with his finger on the trigger as he picked it up. Gun was pointed in a safe direction, no one injured.

Marine shot himself in the head with a M9 after checking the weapon out of the armory, horsing around.

Haitian Police officer shot himself in the foot trying to clear his Model 10 revolver that had the cylinder crane rusted to the point that it was almost impossible to open. Had his finger on the trigger while trying to force the gun open.

Crew member shot himself in the head with a Glock 30 at a party at his house after drinking a lot and then showing his friends his new pistol. He dropped the mag but did not clear the chamber. Was horsing around and pointed the gun at himself and squeezed the trigger.

H&R single shot shotgun discharged into the ground by a friend who was going to shoot a rattlesnake, but it retreated under rocks too quickly. He decided to lower the hammer without opening the action first, and the hammer slipped. Gun was pointed in a safe direction, no injuries other than his pride.

In marine base gun range, shotgun qualification. Had a crew member who fired before the command to commence firing was given. He was disarmed and ejected for not following orders. Gun was pointed at target, no injuries but pride. Much training followed. He qualified on a later relay. Mossberg 590a1.

Atlantic Fleet Rifle matches. An LT trying to clear a double freeway jam furring a 600 yard slow fire sent the bolt home on a round with his finger on the trigger. Bullet impacted the 300 yard berm. No injuries, ceasefire was called, safety brief given and that relay was reshot by all competitors on the line. AR15 match service rifle, not sure if manufacturer.

Sailor shot himself in the lower leg with a Taurus 1911, while unloading it to clean it. Was sitting in a computer chair, dropped the mag and went to rack the slide with his finger on the trigger. Pistol was not pointed in a safe direction, but he did managed to put the bullet through the back if his calf miss both the tibia and fibula and have the bullet exit the front of the lower leg with no major arteries or nerves hit. He called 911, locked up his pistol and walked outside to wait for the ambulance so he didn't bleed more on his new hardwood floor that he lodged a bullet in. It was probably one of the more entertaining patient interviews I've had that related to a gunshot wound. Though there is nothing truly funny about them.

All the other gunshot wounds I've seen we're either intentional from suicides, or from an attacker or defender. So would not quite fit the ND criteria.

But, a pretty wide variety of makes and manufacturers. Most common thread I found was people with their fingers inside the trigger guard when the didn't belong there.

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Old 07-13-2013, 01:31 PM   #27
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I have not personally had a negligent discharge, but of the ones I have been witness to, or treated patients for, or been involved in their care, they break down like this, as well as my memory serves:

A buddy had an ND with my SKS by picking it up off the range bench after loading it with his finger on the trigger as he picked it up. Gun was pointed in a safe direction, no one injured.

Marine shot himself in the head with a M9 after checking the weapon out of the armory, horsing around.

Haitian Police officer shot himself in the foot trying to clear his Model 10 revolver that had the cylinder crane rusted to the point that it was almost impossible to open. Had his finger on the trigger while trying to force the gun open.

Crew member shot himself in the head with a Glock 30 at a party at his house after drinking a lot and then showing his friends his new pistol. He dropped the mag but did not clear the chamber. Was horsing around and pointed the gun at himself and squeezed the trigger.

H&R single shot shotgun discharged into the ground by a friend who was going to shoot a rattlesnake, but it retreated under rocks too quickly. He decided to lower the hammer without opening the action first, and the hammer slipped. Gun was pointed in a safe direction, no injuries other than his pride.

In marine base gun range, shotgun qualification. Had a crew member who fired before the command to commence firing was given. He was disarmed and ejected for not following orders. Gun was pointed at target, no injuries but pride. Much training followed. He qualified on a later relay. Mossberg 590a1.

Atlantic Fleet Rifle matches. An LT trying to clear a double freeway jam furring a 600 yard slow fire sent the bolt home on a round with his finger on the trigger. Bullet impacted the 300 yard berm. No injuries, ceasefire was called, safety brief given and that relay was reshot by all competitors on the line. AR15 match service rifle, not sure if manufacturer.

Sailor shot himself in the lower leg with a Taurus 1911, while unloading it to clean it. Was sitting in a computer chair, dropped the mag and went to rack the slide with his finger on the trigger. Pistol was not pointed in a safe direction, but he did managed to put the bullet through the back if his calf miss both the tibia and fibula and have the bullet exit the front of the lower leg with no major arteries or nerves hit. He called 911, locked up his pistol and walked outside to wait for the ambulance so he didn't bleed more on his new hardwood floor that he lodged a bullet in. It was probably one of the more entertaining patient interviews I've had that related to a gunshot wound. Though there is nothing truly funny about them.

All the other gunshot wounds I've seen we're either intentional from suicides, or from an attacker or defender. So would not quite fit the ND criteria.

But, a pretty wide variety of makes and manufacturers. Most common thread I found was people with their fingers inside the trigger guard when the didn't belong there.
In 40 plus years of shooting I have only had the firing pin drop unintentionally one time, and it was on an XD 40 sub-compact. I had lost some weight and was trying out my first IWB holster to see if I could re-holster the firearm without dropping my pants. Much to my dismay I found out I couldn't, but I did not have a negligent discharge. Knowing what I was going to be doing I emptied the firearm and rechecked it before attempting anything else.

You know, that grip safety is about as worthless as my ex-brother-in-law. I was holding the firearm in the normal grip position when the trigger was pushed by the top of the holster. I saw it happening right before I heard the snap on an empty chamber. That was the last time I holstered that thing without my pants undone. I treat my Glock the same way. No NDs yet, and I plan to keep it that way. I put the Glock in the holster and then put the holster on the pants.

You know, when dealing with firearms you need to follow the 10% rule. You need to be 10% smarter than the firearm. Considering it's an inanimate object, that doesn't say much for the people that do have an ND.
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Old 07-13-2013, 01:44 PM   #28
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In 40 plus years of shooting I have only had the firing pin drop unintentionally one time, and it was on an XD 40 sub-compact. I had lost some weight and was trying out my first IWB holster to see if I could re-holster the firearm without dropping my pants. Much to my dismay I found out I couldn't, but I did not have a negligent discharge. Knowing what I was going to be doing I emptied the firearm and rechecked it before attempting anything else.

You know, that grip safety is about as worthless as my ex-brother-in-law. I was holding the firearm in the normal grip position when the trigger was pushed by the top of the holster. I saw it happening right before I heard the snap on an empty chamber. That was the last time I holstered that thing without my pants undone. I treat my Glock the same way. No NDs yet, and I plan to keep it that way. I put the Glock in the holster and then put the holster on the pants.

You know, when dealing with firearms you need to follow the 10% rule. You need to be 10% smarter than the firearm. Considering it's an inanimate object, that doesn't say much for the people that do have an ND.
Your point is excellent and reinforces the importance if the basic safety rules. In the examples above, when adhering to other safety rules, such as pointing in a safe direction, injuries and death were prevented.

I'm not a huge fan of grip safeties either. They were invented for dropping a gun off of a horse. Newr firing pin drop safeties work as well or better, but...

Also, you point out that thinking about what you are doing before practicing with a firearm is an important safety step.
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Old 07-13-2013, 02:55 PM   #29
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Your point is excellent and reinforces the importance if the basic safety rules. In the examples above, when adhering to other safety rules, such as pointing in a safe direction, injuries and death were prevented.

I'm not a huge fan of grip safeties either. They were invented for dropping a gun off of a horse. Newr firing pin drop safeties work as well or better, but...

Also, you point out that thinking about what you are doing before practicing with a firearm is an important safety step.
The funniest part about the whole episode is that even though I knew and confirmed the empty firearm it still scared me. Short of a very loud bang I don't think there could be anything worse to hear when holstering a firearm. It hasn't turned me off of that type of pistol, but it certainly taught me the right way to do things.
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Old 07-17-2013, 03:11 AM   #30
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The only way to do that is to follow the safety rules every time without exception.
The problem with people, is we never do everything perfectly, without exception. Fatigue, illness, sleeplessness, fatigue, anger, fear, weather, and one thousand other circumstances come into play. People are not robots.
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