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-   -   Glock 23 Double Tap? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f56/glock-23-double-tap-25585/)

ejewels 04-03-2010 06:18 PM

Glock 23 Double Tap?
 
Hello,

I'm fairly new to shooting (handguns) and I have a glock 23, gen 3 stock. I've always wanted to try double-tapping or shooting two quick shots, so I did a little research and tried it today a the range. I have no idea how these guys do it! The muzzle flip is high on this gun and I just couldn't seem to place to rapid fire shots well AT ALL. It seems as tho when I pull the second shot off, my gun is high in it's action / recoil stage. Any ideas, recommendations on the art of the double tap? Is this gun not a gun to do it on well? Thanks in advance...

MoHawk 04-03-2010 06:32 PM

EJewels, please swing by the introduction section and let everyone know you are here and a bit about you. I personally am a revolver guy myself and don't double tap, so I can offer no help. But someone will be along shortly to answer your questions, I'm sure. In the mean time, welcome to the forum and good luck

Dillinger 04-03-2010 06:42 PM

First off, Welcome to the FTF Community.

If you feel like it, please stop by the Introductions section and introduce yourself to the guys and gals of this great site.

Okay, The "Myth" of The Ultimate Double:

Operators can place two quick shots, at distance, with a high caliber handgun into one ragged hole.

The Fact: Yeah, hardcore pistoliers and operators can do that all day long. Because they shoot THOUSANDS of rounds a week through their handgun of choice. These guys are the types that spend HOURS everyday shooting and they can flat put rounds on target because their life and the lives of their fellow operators depend on it.

Now, true story:

I have a friend who is a former SeAL. He was part of two boat crews and he spent 6 years operational. He is also my gunsmith and we shoot together from time to time.

On one trip to the range we were testing some pistols and we weren't competing, but we were both trying to show some skills.

Off handedly I made a comment about wanting to see a real double tap. So Brett loads up a mag for his Kimber and he spends a minute taking a look at the target, then BANG-BANG, he unloads two quick rounds that were pretty close together, almost one constant sound.

We look at the target and the rounds were about 1/4" to 1/2" at most apart at 7 yards. Center mass, in the "X" ring.

So, I make a comment that it's pretty good for an old SeAL and Brett responds with "Yeah, for what little worth it is".

So, we talk for a bit and he explains to me that shooting in a high intensity situation putting two rounds into the same hole can serve it's purpose. You might have to shoot high, or low to the groin, to avoid a battle armor clad foe. The first round is to stun/stop and the second round is to completely destroy that area of the body.

But, in a real world parking lot, home invasion or "mall shooting" environment, your attacker is probably going to present a full chest, face forward target.

In this situation, if you address the target with your pistol of choice, shooting low with your first shot, low abdomen, and having the pistol rise naturally with the recoil, followed up by the secondary shot to the middle of the chest, is going to have two good size gaping holes from which blood will be flowing. The more blood that is leaking, the better chance you have of STOPPING THE ATTACK.

After we talked, I was struck by the fact that stories of being able to put two .45 rounds into the size of a quarter is awesome shooting, but putting two .45 rounds into TWO fleshy points would result in a much greater chance to stop the mythical attacker.

Now, as for your personal choice of pistol. The trigger is not the best. I don't think many people would disagree with that unless you are an ultimate Gaston fan.

You can have the trigger tuned, to allow for less take up and a faster reset, which is going to help your ability to put two rounds closer together.

But really the best advice is that if you love this pistol, and this is the pistol you are going to be carrying and using, then PRACTICE!

The more practice, the easier it's going to be to put the rounds where they need to be, which is in the fleshy stuff of the bad guy.

JD

MoHawk 04-03-2010 06:46 PM

JD, you been hanging around Robo much?.... Thread Killer

ejewels 04-03-2010 07:33 PM

thanks for the responses and welcome!
 
Thanks guys for the welcome and answers! I guess what I don't understand is when you shoot a double tap, do you think like this:

aim once, pull the trigger as fast as you can twice -OR- aim twice for each shot. I tried the latter, and the time it takes for the gun to action and recoil and then come back down is definitely too long for that double tap speed. The fastest I was able to shoot two shots seemed like 1-2 seconds. :(

Is it bad to practice on a glock 23? I've heard the muzzle flip isn't the best to learn shooting with this gun / caliber.

Jpyle 04-04-2010 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ejewels (Post 263460)
Thanks guys for the welcome and answers! I guess what I don't understand is when you shoot a double tap, do you think like this:

aim once, pull the trigger as fast as you can twice -OR- aim twice for each shot. I tried the latter, and the time it takes for the gun to action and recoil and then come back down is definitely too long for that double tap speed. The fastest I was able to shoot two shots seemed like 1-2 seconds. :(

Is it bad to practice on a glock 23? I've heard the muzzle flip isn't the best to learn shooting with this gun / caliber.

As a beginner the best course of action is to become proficient in aiming, acquiring a clear sight picture, controlling recoil, second shot on target and so on. Aim and fire as quickly as safety allows. Double taps are for later...walk before you can run sorta thing.

utf59 04-04-2010 01:52 PM

Quote:

Is it bad to practice on a glock 23? I've heard the muzzle flip isn't the best to learn shooting with this gun / caliber.
It's very true that the .40 round has a lot of muzzle flip, and the shorter the barrel, the more susceptible the gun is to that. But if that's what you're going to carry...

Now for learning a new skill, I say always start with a .22. That isn't going to help you manage recoil, but it will get you through the mental aspect a lot cheaper than using up your .40 ammo.

Quote:

aim once, pull the trigger as fast as you can twice -OR- aim twice for each shot.
In my experience/reading, the first is called a double tap and the second is called a controlled pair.

The idea with a double tap, as I understand it, is to take aim once, fire, then quickly reset the trigger and fire again before the muzzle rises too far to make the second shot useless. With a controlled pair, you aim, fire, re-aim, and fire again.

A double tap is greatly enhanced by a good trigger. Short, crisp pull and a short reset. A Glock, because of its partially double-action nature, has a long pull.

To me, double taps are mostly a physical skill, and controlled pairs have more of a mental component. That doesn't mean you leave your brain in your range bag when you double tap and that there's no physical component to controlled pairs. But personally, I had to work on my brain a lot more to do controlled pairs.

ejewels 04-04-2010 11:22 PM

thanks for the tip. I realize I need to have some more range time in general, but the whole idea of it seems much harder than it looks. The more recoil, the harder i guess. when i tried it, the gun felt out of control when trying to pull the second trigger pull, do you guys grip the gun tighter when attempting a double tap?

Glasshartt 04-04-2010 11:27 PM

You may just need to get more familiar and confortable with the weapon. Practice will help more than anything. Double taps are part of my qualification courses, they can become 2nd nature after a while.

Bighead 04-12-2010 07:43 PM

From your preferred shooting stance, aim & press the trigger one time. Allow the gun to recoil and return. Once you have reestablished your sight picture, press the trigger again. Do this as slowly as is necessary to control sight picture and trigger press.

As you become more comfortable with your grip, establishing sight picture, and your trigger press the split time between shots one & two will improve.

+1 to JDs discussion about not wanting to shoot an attacker with multiple rounds to the same point of aim is excellent. If I'm trying to cause maximum damage, why would I want to thread second and third rounds into an existing would cavity when I could be creating all new damage. Of course for most of us shooting that good won't be a problem under the stress of actual combat.:D


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