FBI's Gory PDF - Page 2


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Old 08-06-2009, 03:30 PM   #11
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Did anyone else find it ironic that his tattoo said "live by the gun"?
Yes. Also that his other tattoo said "What Doesn't Kill You Makes You Stronger." And I think the arm tattoo also included "Die By The Gun."

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I think some of the confusion stems from the FBI's disputing the NTOA's statements.
The impression I got from an earlier page was that the coroner's office initially issued information that was in error. I believe the page with all the details (small print) was that initial report. If so, then all the detailed description of bullet performance is what we're NOT supposed to believe (which is confusing).

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One questions from a non packer. WHO the HELL shoots some one in the darn foot?
Lots of people. If a bad guy is standing behind a car while shooting, you can lie down behind your own car, get a clear shot at his feet and ankles under both cars, and put him on the ground. My impression in reading this report is that that's what they did and that's when one or more officers flanked him with M-4s. If so, that also might explain all the pass-throughs, since they would have been shooting from very close range.

It's also common practice in the military to use "grazing fire," where a machine gun barrel stays parallel to the ground, usually a foot or two above ground, and the gunner traverses the barrel back and forth. That keeps rounds from digging into the dirt, increasing their effective range. It also maximizes the chances of hitting the enemy — guys on their feet get hit in the legs and brought down, and guys who are prone get hit in the body/head.


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Old 08-06-2009, 05:09 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by utf59 View Post
If a bad guy is standing behind a car while shooting, you can lie down behind your own car, get a clear shot at his feet and ankles under both cars, and put him on the ground. My impression in reading this report is that that's what they did and that's when one or more officers flanked him with M-4s. If so, that also might explain all the pass-throughs, since they would have been shooting from very close range.

It's also common practice in the military to use "grazing fire," where a machine gun barrel stays parallel to the ground, usually a foot or two above ground, and the gunner traverses the barrel back and forth. That keeps rounds from digging into the dirt, increasing their effective range. It also maximizes the chances of hitting the enemy — guys on their feet get hit in the legs and brought down, and guys who are prone get hit in the body/head.
That's exactly why there are no rules in a gunfight or fight. Use all advantages and tactics. Good observation and information there, utf59. Now could you please go to the New Members Introduction thread and introduce yourself to the rest of us, especially if you are a military member, judging by your jump wings avatar. I, along with everyone else, may find your posts have some valuable information to share here in our forum, if the rest of your posts are anything like this one. Good job!

Jack


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Old 08-11-2009, 06:01 PM   #13
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The reason the .223 were ineffective was because the energy that they possessed did not do anything other than breaking bones on the assailant. I believe it was like 11 or so of 17 rounds of the .223 went through the person. The heat form the bullet will cauterize the wound at the entry point. It does not act like an arrow broadhead witch cuts the tissue and allows the wound to bleed a whole lot. Rounds that go through and through don't cause the tissue damage a fully opened up round does that has stopped inside of someone.

The reason why the FBI would consider the .40 as being effective would be because they had stopped in the subject and some have opened. I don't know why they all did not open and penetrate more than they did, but there could have been other contributing factors to the ammunition that we don't know about such as the age of the ammunition and moisture content within the rounds powder that would cause a slow burn. LE officers don't often swap old ammo for new ammo especially since ammo is hard to find right now. Weather conditions can impact the ammo for days.

I am not writing for or against any of the rounds, I just think that sometimes there are more things to look at than just believing what others say is true. Shot placement is needed at every gun battle. But I also am a firm believer in producing the max amount of damage with the least amount of ammo.

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Old 08-11-2009, 10:26 PM   #14
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One more reason why the "10" ring needs to be over the Medulla Oblangata on silhouette targets. You have to disconnect the brain from the body. Shoot them in the mouth and save ammo.

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Old 08-11-2009, 11:07 PM   #15
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Great article. One of the best I have ever read. I can't get over how many times this guy was hit and did not stop him. You hear about this stuff in the news but it does not sink in until you actually see the pictures. What more incentive would a person need to go out and practice, practice, practice? Thanks a bunch for an excellent eye opening article.

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Old 08-11-2009, 11:20 PM   #16
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Thanks for the info Rentacop. For a future LEO that is good to know since PD's are starting to issue .40 gold dot.

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Old 08-11-2009, 11:37 PM   #17
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Excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused about that article. All this shooting happened at 20 feet. Is it normal for a 40 Cal. bullet not to penetrate to do bodily harm at that close of range? I do understand shot placement, I do a lot of hunting, but I would figure 1 maybe 2 shots to the chest should of ended this conflict. Its not like the officers did not hit this guy. True, one shot to the head would of stopped it quickly, but I would of thought a shot to the chest or belly would of slowed this guy down. I guess what I'm asking is what caliber should be used for defense if the 40 cal. was not enough? Would a 357 mag be enough at that close range? Sorry for the long post, but this article opened up a whole new set of questions for myself.

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Old 08-11-2009, 11:49 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Donnyj View Post
Excuse my ignorance, but I'm confused about that article. All this shooting happened at 20 feet. Is it normal for a 40 Cal. bullet not to penetrate to do bodily harm at that close of range? I do understand shot placement, I do a lot of hunting, but I would figure 1 maybe 2 shots to the chest should of ended this conflict. Its not like the officers did not hit this guy. True, one shot to the head would of stopped it quickly, but I would of thought a shot to the chest or belly would of slowed this guy down. I guess what I'm asking is what caliber should be used for defense if the 40 cal. was not enough? Would a 357 mag be enough at that close range? Sorry for the long post, but this article opened up a whole new set of questions for myself.
I believe the problem was the .40 caliber round PLUS the hollow points/expanding rounds PLUS the fact that the bad guy had on several layers of protection in clothing.

Much like dropping a really flat rock, or a plate, into a flat surface of water, when a hollow point round impacts a solid ( like skin ), it starts to disperse it's energy out, causing a shockwave that "should" result in terminal damage to the delicate vitals within the human body. Anyone who has ever done a bellyflop into a flat lake knows what I am talking about.

The problem, as seen in the second example where the driver's seat was struck several times, is that the .40 cal rounds dispersed their energy too early.

Why the one lone round that struck the assailant in the throat was NOT a critical wound is beyond me. That should have been a kill shot, but according to the coroner, it was not.

I carried a .40 S&W for years and never doubted it's performance based on what I had seen. Based on this report, I have my doubts.

JD


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