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Rentacop 08-01-2009 03:21 PM

FBI's Gory PDF
This PDF was included in an email newsletter from Front Sight. Hope the link works. It has gory content but might spark some dicussion of stopping power and shot placement.

Dillinger 08-01-2009 04:22 PM

That's very good information Rentacop, thank you for posting this.

Everyone needs to take some time and read that report if you carry a weapon for protection or have one around the house.

Of interest, the police officers involved were shooting a suspect with only a down jacket a T-shirt. Their .40S&W rounds penetrated about an inch into the victim and did not cause any life threatening wounds.

The SWAT officer fired .223 rounds ( 17 I believe ) and 13 of them WENT THROUGH the assailant without stopping him.

I found the report kind of double speaking. They said the .40S&W was insufficient to end the threat, but then at the end they said it was sufficent. The .223 rounds, which did not pass the FBI tests, did end the threat, but at the end of the report they claimed the rounds were not sufficient.

This goes to show that shot placement is much more important than getting multiple rounds on target. A large round is going to help, but this assailant had a shattered arm and a shattered pelvis and continued to shoot at officers.

Tight groups guys - where you want to place them is the key, not slinging lead in the area of the bad guys....


Shotgun Shooter 08-01-2009 04:34 PM

Did anyone else find it ironic that his tattoo said "live by the gun"?

But, definitely good info. Thanks, Rentacop.


layton 08-01-2009 04:49 PM

I got the same from Front Sight, they do have some good stuff they put out to make you stop and think, and they do have a well laid out marketing plan.What got me is the amount of hits, and when the last decisive round was fired, was he was still firing.ANOTHER THING IS THAT SHOWS WHAT CAN HAPPEN IN THE HEAT OF A CONFLICT, Opps sorry for the caps, keys are too close.Also he still reloaded from loose rounds from a box of rounds. That really goes to prove that every one needs to practice and practice on shot placement.


Rentacop 08-04-2009 12:32 AM

Glad you found the link worthwhile. I think some of the confusion stems from the FBI's disputing the NTOA's statements. The FBI seems to imply that some of the .40 bullets had to penetrate more than an inch based on the fact that they mushroomed.

The key points here are :
1) The initial wound or wounds can trigger the body's natural defenses, shutting off pain and making the body insensitive to subsequent wounds.

2) Unless a wound shuts down the central nervous system, you can't bet on an instant stop.

3) Shot placement is king.

4) Even top quality ammo may not live up to your expectations even if it performs as advertised.

skullcrusher 08-04-2009 12:37 AM

Great thread, thanks Rentacop. :)

cpttango30 08-04-2009 01:01 AM


One questions from a non packer. WHO the HELL shoots some one in the darn foot?

They sure did shoot the hell out of that guy.

Mark F 08-04-2009 11:30 AM

I don't think anyone doubted or argued that shot placement is KING. However, making an appropriate shot placement during a gun-fight will prove to be very difficult at best. PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE is your only chance to get it right.

bwillaub 08-04-2009 02:03 PM

Also points out.......
the need to carry spare magazines even if it was from the bad guy's point of view this time.
I'm not too sure what to take from the ballistic evidence tho. I will continue to carry my Ruger P94 and practice, practice, practice.

SGT-MILLER 08-05-2009 12:21 AM

A good reminder of the reality that comes with the use of a firearm.

Put the argument of stopping power aside, and take a long look at the guy on the morgue table.

Prepare yourself mentally, because in a self defense situation you had better be ready to make someone look just like that guy on the table, otherwise that guy on the table may be you......

Be responsible, and enjoy the hobby of firearms, but remember to put thought into the serious side of them as well.

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