Why Rob Pincus now prefers the 9mm over .40 S&W for self defense - Page 4
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:38 PM   #31
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I guess, according to the article, that I should toss my 1911. Not enough rounds, not fast enough, too expensive to shoot.

Not

I plink with 9mm, .22, .380 etc., but I practice with a 1911. When I carry a 1911, I never worry about having enough gun.

I subscribe to long held tradition that goes back to the cave man: If you are going to throw rocks, throw the biggest rock you can handle. Small rocks work if you can hit the eye, but larger rocks are more versatile.

If I were going into a crowded space and attempting to injure as many folks as possible, I would want a large capacity, small caliber handgun that had as much over-penetration as possible. If I were defending such a situation, I would prefer accurate shot placement with a known man stopper.
I don't believe in the concept of "having enough gun". It leads to people using "too much gun", who can't handle that particular gun competently. Look back to the .44 Magnum craze of the 70's. A bunch of ya-hoos went out and bought Model 29's....loaded them with 240gr JHP full tilt magnum rounds, and thought they were now all that and a bag of chips.

Very darned few people can use a .44 Mag as a defensive arm. I use the police qualification course as a baseline. I shot it with a 4" Model 629 and qualified....BUT....it was a motherhumper, and my score was only a 255/300 (barely passing) on a course I could shoot 295/300 on a BAD day with a .38, 9mm, 40. Accuracy was fine, but I lost points in time.

I shot the 629 in qualification for two reasons. Number one, I wanted to see if I could do it. Number two, I was working a rural district where we very well might have to put down auto-struck livestock and I wanted to have the .44 available (in the trunk of the cruiser NOT on my hip) for that task, and we were not allowed to carry a weapon with which we had not qualified.

So...you now have Joe carrying a .45 because someone told him NOTHING else would work. Joe isn't "good" with the .45. He doesn't shoot it well. BUT...he chooses to leave the 9mm Smith & Wesson Model 669 (or whatever) that he shoots REALLY REALLY WELL at home because he's been conditioned to believe the 9mm would only hurt the BG's feelings, and only a man with a .45 is really a manly man.

Thus...poor Joe is now actually LESS able to defend himself competently and well with that big ole .45 than he would be with the puny little vaginal 9mm sissy pistol.

Ego investiture in a gun is a crappy reason to choose that weapon. Chain...you MAY be able to shoot that 45 as well as I shoot. I am a master class steel shooter (USPSA and former ISPC), and ranked IDPA shooter, 20+ year PPC competitor, 23 year veteran police officer, 7 year SWAT Team member until my knees blew out, and defensive handgun instructor. I shoot 500 + rounds a week. I am NOT bragging or chest thumping...I am making a point of my experience. AND....I like the 9mm as a defensive round. I feel just as well protected by the vaginal little sissy 9mm as I do with a Glock 21 or 1911 in .45. My wife who is a currently serving officer carries a 9mm. She shoots it extremely well, much better than the optional 40 or 45. So that's what she carries, and I don't feel she is the least little bit undergunned.

"The 9mm is a (insert vulgar term for female genitalia) caliber. You need to get at least a 40" said the owner of a now-defunct gun shop in Tucson to a female adult-probation officer who had just got her CCW and was looking to get her carry gun.

I was in the store, in uniform. The lady asked me what I carried. I told her I carried a 9mm on and off duty. She then asked me if I ever had to use it. I answered in the affirmative. She asked how it worked. I told her I was still here.

Then I asked the guy who was bad mouthing the 9mm what HE carried. He sheepishly told me he carried a Smith .38 snubby.

So...where is the truth in all this?

Carrying a .38 Special to a .45 ACP that YOU SHOOT WELL and can place rounds where you need them with premium defensive ammo is what is most important. NOT which of the major defensive calibers you carry.

Quite honestly...on those rare occaisions when I carry a 1911...I carry a Commander in .38 Super. Ten rounds, a LOT less recoil than the .45 and superior accuracy.

If I had to carry ball ammo only....then you betcha by golly I would carry a 45. But with ammo selection what is is nowadays, and the flat shooting, low recoil, and great terminal performance of the modern 9mms...it is a great choice for self defense.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:42 PM   #32
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Chainfire,

I think you'll see a resurgence of "45 ACP love" shortly after

they regress to 9mm for a while.

I'm with you, IMO, the 1911A1 is THE pistol.

In all fairness, however, there are some great 9mms out there.

Have you tried a Beretta 92A1?--

ArizonaLawman,,

IMO, the people who call 9mm a "insert female blah-blah here"

round, and the guys who

listen to them, spend way too little time at the range.

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Old 09-21-2011, 02:24 PM   #33
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I don't believe in the concept of "having enough gun". It leads to people using "too much gun", who can't handle that particular gun competently. Look back to the .44 Magnum craze of the 70's. A bunch of ya-hoos went out and bought Model 29's....loaded them with 240gr JHP full tilt magnum rounds, and thought they were now all that and a bag of chips.

Very darned few people can use a .44 Mag as a defensive arm. I use the police qualification course as a baseline. I shot it with a 4" Model 629 and qualified....BUT....it was a motherhumper, and my score was only a 255/300 (barely passing) on a course I could shoot 295/300 on a BAD day with a .38, 9mm, 40. Accuracy was fine, but I lost points in time.

I shot the 629 in qualification for two reasons. Number one, I wanted to see if I could do it. Number two, I was working a rural district where we very well might have to put down auto-struck livestock and I wanted to have the .44 available (in the trunk of the cruiser NOT on my hip) for that task, and we were not allowed to carry a weapon with which we had not qualified.

So...you now have Joe carrying a .45 because someone told him NOTHING else would work. Joe isn't "good" with the .45. He doesn't shoot it well. BUT...he chooses to leave the 9mm Smith & Wesson Model 669 (or whatever) that he shoots REALLY REALLY WELL at home because he's been conditioned to believe the 9mm would only hurt the BG's feelings, and only a man with a .45 is really a manly man.

Thus...poor Joe is now actually LESS able to defend himself competently and well with that big ole .45 than he would be with the puny little vaginal 9mm sissy pistol.

Ego investiture in a gun is a crappy reason to choose that weapon. Chain...you MAY be able to shoot that 45 as well as I shoot. I am a master class steel shooter (USPSA and former ISPC), and ranked IDPA shooter, 20+ year PPC competitor, 23 year veteran police officer, 7 year SWAT Team member until my knees blew out, and defensive handgun instructor. I shoot 500 + rounds a week. I am NOT bragging or chest thumping...I am making a point of my experience. AND....I like the 9mm as a defensive round. I feel just as well protected by the vaginal little sissy 9mm as I do with a Glock 21 or 1911 in .45. My wife who is a currently serving officer carries a 9mm. She shoots it extremely well, much better than the optional 40 or 45. So that's what she carries, and I don't feel she is the least little bit undergunned.

"The 9mm is a (insert vulgar term for female genitalia) caliber. You need to get at least a 40" said the owner of a now-defunct gun shop in Tucson to a female adult-probation officer who had just got her CCW and was looking to get her carry gun.

I was in the store, in uniform. The lady asked me what I carried. I told her I carried a 9mm on and off duty. She then asked me if I ever had to use it. I answered in the affirmative. She asked how it worked. I told her I was still here.

Then I asked the guy who was bad mouthing the 9mm what HE carried. He sheepishly told me he carried a Smith .38 snubby.

So...where is the truth in all this?

Carrying a .38 Special to a .45 ACP that YOU SHOOT WELL and can place rounds where you need them with premium defensive ammo is what is most important. NOT which of the major defensive calibers you carry.

Quite honestly...on those rare occaisions when I carry a 1911...I carry a Commander in .38 Super. Ten rounds, a LOT less recoil than the .45 and superior accuracy.

If I had to carry ball ammo only....then you betcha by golly I would carry a 45. But with ammo selection what is is nowadays, and the flat shooting, low recoil, and great terminal performance of the modern 9mms...it is a great choice for self defense.
Add this to the FTF sticky hall of fame.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:37 PM   #34
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Chainfire,

I think you'll see a resurgence of "45 ACP love" shortly after

they regress to 9mm for a while.

I'm with you, IMO, the 1911A1 is THE pistol.

In all fairness, however, there are some great 9mms out there.

Have you tried a Beretta 92A1?--

ArizonaLawman,,

IMO, the people who call 9mm a "insert female blah-blah here"

round, and the guys who

listen to them, spend way too little time at the range.
MOST folks who own a gun for self defense spend WAY too little time at the range, so I agree with you.

A standard answer I always gave when someone whizzed on a particular caliber was...."How willing are you to take a round in the chest from it?" And as CLint Smith has said many times...."No one likes to leak."

Personally....I don't want to get shot with a pellet gun let alone a rimfire or a centerfire round. But hey...that's just me. I must be a wussie.

The important thing is training, practice, and ammo selection. If you miss any of those components in your defensive planning, you aren't planning to do anything but lose when you HAVE to win.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:49 PM   #35
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Me thinks the 9mm crowd doth protest to much. If you like it, shoot it. Stop trying to convince everyone who doesn't like it what a fabulous round it is. The last statistics I read said in the average gunfight there was only 4 rounds exchanged. So Hi Cap doesn't mean that much to me. Frankly if you need 17 rounds to get the job done maybe the 9 isn't so wonderful after all. Sure hi cap is great for competition and timed shooting but real life isn't like that. I just dont' understand why the 9 folks feel the need to justify why they carry it.

Personally it doesn't matter to me what someone else carries it's their business.

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Old 09-21-2011, 11:45 PM   #36
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Chainfire,

I think you'll see a resurgence of "45 ACP love" shortly after

they regress to 9mm for a while.

I'm with you, IMO, the 1911A1 is THE pistol.

In all fairness, however, there are some great 9mms out there.

Have you tried a Beretta 92A1?--

ArizonaLawman,,

IMO, the people who call 9mm a "insert female blah-blah here"

round, and the guys who

listen to them, spend way too little time at the range.
Not a 92A1, but I do own and shoot a 92FS. I bought it because it is a fine handgun, I enjoy punching paper with it, and it doesn't cost a fortune to shoot it. I actually shoot it better than my .45. My eyes are getting old and the sights work better for me. I still carry the .45.

I have a basic range on my place and I shoot a couple of times a week, cause I just plain love shooting. I have never been a cop and don't shoot competition, and my Navy training was one day on the pistol range. I am no Todd Jarret or Steve McGarrett, but not many folks would like to threaten my life within 50' of my 1911. At home, I have a short barrel 870 available and wouldn't think of using a pistol. If I were confident of making an eyeball shot, under pressure, 100% of the time, I could carry a .25 Raven. I can't so I don't.

I do believe that under pressure and in mortal danger, I can hit a pie plate at 50 feet dang near every time, and I can't imagine missing that pie plate 9 times. Neither can I imagine me having a shoot-out at over 50'. That may or may not be good enough, but I feel fine about it, and that is what concealed carry is all about.

Better than all that, I have managed to avoid a violent confrontation for 60 years. I stay away from places that breed trouble, I mind my own business, and I tinted my car windows so that I can give the finger in traffic and no one sees it but me. (still makes me feel just as good) I would far prefer to use a cell phone than a pistol. If I were in a store and someone robbed it without firing his pistol, I would hide behind the bread rack, pistol in hand, until he got the money and left. Then I would go home and have something to talk about for years.
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Old 09-22-2011, 12:50 AM   #37
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Me thinks the 9mm crowd doth protest to much. If you like it, shoot it. Stop trying to convince everyone who doesn't like it what a fabulous round it is. The last statistics I read said in the average gunfight there was only 4 rounds exchanged. So Hi Cap doesn't mean that much to me. Frankly if you need 17 rounds to get the job done maybe the 9 isn't so wonderful after all. Sure hi cap is great for competition and timed shooting but real life isn't like that. I just dont' understand why the 9 folks feel the need to justify why they carry it.

Personally it doesn't matter to me what someone else carries it's their business.
I think I may have an answer to this. Keep in mind this is only what I perceieve and not necessarily fact as applies to everyone else.

Why do I always try to justify what I carry? Why do I "protest" so much? Why do I try to concince everyone who doesnt like it that its such a great round? Well...to be totally honest...its because I care.

Take this forum for example. A large group of guys (and gals) that care about eachother and their wellbeing. I'm going to try to convince my peers to do what is best because I honestly feel that way, not because I want to "get one over" on them. Think of it as trying to tell your teen son or daughter not to smoke. I'm doing it because I care, not because I am trying to be a bad guy, or force my opinion on someone. I just hate to think how many people on this forum and in other places around the world, go unarmed willingly because they leave their 1911 at home and don't own a 9mm because someone told them its not sufficent.

Thats why I care, thats why I preach, and thats where I stand.

(For the record, I own a .45 and recently sold my 9mm. I am actually in the market for a new one now )
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:06 PM   #38
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Not a 92A1, but I do own and shoot a 92FS. I bought it because it is a fine handgun, I enjoy punching paper with it, and it doesn't cost a fortune to shoot it. I actually shoot it better than my .45. My eyes are getting old and the sights work better for me. I still carry the .45.

I have a basic range on my place and I shoot a couple of times a week, cause I just plain love shooting. I have never been a cop and don't shoot competition, and my Navy training was one day on the pistol range. I am no Todd Jarret or Steve McGarrett, but not many folks would like to threaten my life within 50' of my 1911. At home, I have a short barrel 870 available and wouldn't think of using a pistol. If I were confident of making an eyeball shot, under pressure, 100% of the time, I could carry a .25 Raven. I can't so I don't.

I do believe that under pressure and in mortal danger, I can hit a pie plate at 50 feet dang near every time, and I can't imagine missing that pie plate 9 times. Neither can I imagine me having a shoot-out at over 50'. That may or may not be good enough, but I feel fine about it, and that is what concealed carry is all about.

Better than all that, I have managed to avoid a violent confrontation for 60 years. I stay away from places that breed trouble, I mind my own business, and I tinted my car windows so that I can give the finger in traffic and no one sees it but me. (still makes me feel just as good) I would far prefer to use a cell phone than a pistol. If I were in a store and someone robbed it without firing his pistol, I would hide behind the bread rack, pistol in hand, until he got the money and left. Then I would go home and have something to talk about for years.
Chain....when I teach new shooters to a combat handgun/home defense class...I teach them to practice to my "Long Hallway Rule" as a drill.

Set up your target (two are even better) at the longest distance you will fire inside your home. If you use two targets, set them up so one is slightly behind, and partially covered by the first as they would be trying to come through a door. As an example, from your bedroom door to your front door. I am using this example as I obviously don't know the layout of your house.

Start from the ready position, as I assume you WILL have your pistol already in your hand when you are alerted to a threat at the door.

On your first run...SLOWLY...extend, touch, and press to get the best, most accurate shot on target that you can. Try for high center chest. Move SLOWLY to the second target, and repeat. Go back to ready postion, and repeat until you have expended that magazine. Look at your hits. If they are exactly where you wanted them, tape your holes and speed up on the next run. If they are not where you wanted them, tape your holes, and repeat at the same speed. ONLY increase your speed when ALL your rounds are where you want them, and then only in small increments.

The goal for mastering this drill is to be able to empty your magazine into the high center chest area of the target AS FAST AS YOU CAN PRESS THE TRIGGER. I don't care about tiny little groups. I care about effective hits in the bread basket. If the shots can be covered by a paper plate...good. If it can be covered by your hand...great. If they can be covered by your palm...you aren't shooting fast enough. Balance of speed and accuracy is key in this situation.

There MAY be a time when you need to place an absolute precision shot on a target, and I mean dead betwixt the eyes/tip of nose triangle, but far more likely that you need to dump rounds into high center chest (HCC) right now! Practice to that standard. Change it up...move the targets around and wargame the scenario.

Remember now though...you have a nominal 8 rounds to solve this problem...possibly 9 rounds if you are using Wilson or McCormick mags. Increase your challenge and add a 3rd bad guy to the party. Now speed becomes more critical, and so does accuracy and absolute dead proficiency with your pistol.

Since you're already a practiced shooter...you should be able to do this on 3 bag guys in about 3 seconds from the ready position. We are assuming you have warning, and have your gun ready.

If you plan to use your 870...try the drill with that. Now you need to think about reloading on the fly, and WHERE THE SHOT IS GOING TO HIT AT THAT DISTANCE. You better know that bit of info in case you have young ones who may wander into the line of fire.

Personally...in this situation in MY house...I would engage that threat with an M4 with a light and a 30 round magazine. My carbine will be backed up with my dedicated home defense Glock 17 with a light on it. That's my plan for a potential home invasion. My wife will have her Benelli backed up with her light-equipped Glock 17, and her job is to cover our daughter while I deal with the threat. She should only have to deal with the threat IF I screw up and I am dead of stupid...but we practice for this too.

What I am saying is "train". Wargame it out, think of different scenarios, set them up and "train" for them, then once you have trained for them, add them to your practice regimen.

If you want to rely on the 45...by all means...it isn't a bad choice by any means. But if you do, be damned sure you run that gun, and it doesn't run you. BUT...my reccomendation still stands...for MOST people the 9mm is the better choice. Load that little sucker with 124gr +P JHP ammo from Hornady, Federal, Winchester, MagTech, or any of the other quality manufacturers, and with it's higher capacity and more inherent accuracy it's a hard combo to beat.

As an added thought...you MAY have to fight with what you have IN THE GUN. You may have just rumpled out of bed in your boxers and PJ's...grabbed your pistol...and that is the condition in which you will enter the fight.

Right now...it is 0454...I came in a little while ago from feeding the horses and turning them out for the morning. When I rolled out of bed, I slipped my Glock 27 and a pair of spares into the holster on my belt to go about my business. There ARE illegals that come through this area of the county, and between my landsharks and my baby Glock...I would be okay...there IS an AR in the barn too...but if TSHTF....I will have to fight with what I have on. But even with my little 40 it has 11 rounds ready to go, and 18 more on tap in the spares. And YES...I have practiced the hell out of the above drill with my backup guns only.
(we shoot BUG ONLY matches about once every 3 months) I know that at 25 yards I can make head shots IF I need to with the G27. But I also know I can do it faster with a Glock 17 or even the Glock 26 I carry as a BUG to the 17...but you fight with what you have. You may even have to fight with someone else's gun.

Don't let dogmatic thinking limit you. No matter what you carry...be good with it, and I sincerely hope that you never HAVE to use it, and can go your whole life in peace. Having to use it on another person, no matter how justified is a blue-toothed-bitch, I know.

I apologize for the pic quality...but it is an on-the-spot cell phone pic I just took.

I also included ALL THE CRAP I CARRY every day....because you fight with what you have.

Be safe!
g27-mag-pouch.jpg   g27-belt.jpg   crap-i-carry-3.jpg  
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:35 PM   #39
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Me thinks the 9mm crowd doth protest to much. If you like it, shoot it. Stop trying to convince everyone who doesn't like it what a fabulous round it is. The last statistics I read said in the average gunfight there was only 4 rounds exchanged. So Hi Cap doesn't mean that much to me. Frankly if you need 17 rounds to get the job done maybe the 9 isn't so wonderful after all. Sure hi cap is great for competition and timed shooting but real life isn't like that. I just dont' understand why the 9 folks feel the need to justify why they carry it.

Personally it doesn't matter to me what someone else carries it's their business.
OR...it could be that IF you're in a ruckus where you NEED 17 rounds to get the job done...your skills are lacking AND your tactics suck, and your training has been lacking. No matter what you happen to be carrying.

BUT...more probably...you are just in the suckiest position in which a man can find himself, and you are NOT performing the way you can on the range under perfect circumstances, and bullets are coming YOUR way...because they have a bad habit of doing that in a gunfight.

IF you NEED 17 rounds to get the job done, regardless of caliber, you're going to be damned glad you HAD those 17 rounds...and I promise you're really really going to be wishing you had a rifle and friends with rifles backing you up.

And think about this....do you like to live on the promises of averages and statistics? You think that MAYBE those "4 average rounds" might not be the four rounds a bad guy just shot into YOU and you are dead before YOU can return fire?????????

There are a bunch of "OR's" "BUT's" and "IF's" in the above statement....because when TSHTF you are definitely NOT where you want to be.

Just something to think about. You might be a hot turd on a taco on the square range with your buddies...but no one is a hot turd on a taco in a gun fight...you are just trying to survive...and you better darned well have the equipment, and the know how trained into to you before it happens. It sucks to try to learn new stuff in the middle of a zombie attack.
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:40 PM   #40
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IMO, the true danger here is Rob Pincus may lure someone

away from a SD pistol with which they are competent.

CCW is very personal. I think women do it best, because they

have a purse or handbag, and can carry that .22 or .380

easily wherever they go, 24/7.

While I personally like to carry .45 and 9mm, I've even

carried a .44 for a week. But I can't really state which is

better for everybody, everytime.


CCW is sort of like being a submarine commander. Many times you

have to make a decision based on incomplete,incorrect,or

missing information. And God help you if you're wrong.

Training is key, and crime statistics are dropping like a rock,

so we, the law abiding CCW public, must be doing something

right.

Congratulations, and kudos to you all...

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