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Old 09-18-2011, 04:14 PM   #21
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I know Rob...he's almost as smart as me (wink wink Rob).

He knows his craft.

There is barely a whisper of difference betwixt the .38Spl and .45acp IF LOADED WITH PREMIUM DEFENSIVE AMMUNITION. I don't feel a bit undergunned carrying a 9mm.

It is now, and really always has been about shot placement. A lousy hit with a 45 will always get beat by a good hit with a 9mm.

Carry what you like best and what best works for you then....STFU

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Old 09-18-2011, 04:17 PM   #22
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I know Rob...he's almost as smart as me (wink wink Rob).

He knows his craft.

There is barely a whisper of difference betwixt the .38Spl and .45acp IF LOADED WITH PREMIUM DEFENSIVE AMMUNITION. I don't feel a bit undergunned carrying a 9mm.

It is now, and really always has been about shot placement. A lousy hit with a 45 will always get beat by a good hit with a 9mm.

Carry what you like best and what best works for you then....STFU and stop worrying yourself about what the other guy is carrying and telling him how superior you are because you choose something else!

I know LOTS of guys who can't hit the broad side of a barn with their 45 even if they are standing INSIDE of that barn.

Me...I like 'em all...38 through 45. I plan to keep shooting all of them, and carrying whatever one suits mt whim of the day (truthfully it's usually a Glock 22RTF because I like the RTF frame the best...but I'd carry a Glock 17RTF if I could find one).

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Old 09-19-2011, 10:42 AM   #23
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Thanks for sharing the article and thanks for discussing it here, guys.

Unfortunately, several of you seem to be picking and choosing which parts to read (or at least reference in your rebuttals).

As the much more important point of the article alludes to, we should all be willing to change our minds about something we believe if we are presented with enough information and have an open enough mind.... as well as a desire to not simply "be right" all the time. In that spirit, I certainly expect people to disagree with my conclusions about caliber for defense, but simply choosing one argument (cost or capacity, as has been done in this thread) to pounce on and deride is kinda ridiculous.

"I don't care what anyone says, I like ***" (maybe with some foot stomping and the holding of breath) is fine... pulling out one part of the article and making it sound like you are brilliant for pointing out its flaws on its own really does fall short of discussion.

-RJP

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Old 09-19-2011, 11:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Pincus View Post
"I don't care what anyone says, I like ***" (maybe with some foot stomping and the holding of breath) is fine... pulling out one part of the article and making it sound like you are brilliant for pointing out its flaws on its own really does fall short of discussion.

-RJP
What? This is one of my favorite parts of this forum! I like to "rock the boat" a bit if you will. Its stimulating to try and test everyone by getting them to consider other perspectives on what is generally something "set in stone."

Opinions should evolve by continuing to challenge the accepted standards. Who knows, maybe someday the .380 will become an acceptable defensive round .
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Old 09-19-2011, 11:25 AM   #25
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I like to "rock the boat" a bit if you will. Its stimulating to try and test everyone by getting them to consider other perspectives on what is generally something "set in stone."
Agreed.... but, I think the boat is best rocked with a well thought out presentation of concepts, not hyperbole and selective quotation.
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Old 09-19-2011, 12:54 PM   #26
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Bullet weight plus speed has more to do with effectiveness than anything. 380 and 9mm are very close in size of bullet speed and weight. Yet its obvious as to terminal power when shot at.

If your sole point is a hit by a lesser round is more effective than a miss by a tac-nuke... then we should all just use airsoft.

The basic tennent remains use the biggest round, in the most comfy gun you can weild and fire accurately and quickly.

Ive used 556 308 and 458winmag to take deer. Guess which round is the one ive never had to track deer with...

Same principle applies in self defense. Hollow points can open big wound channels in just about any caliber. But i prefer a round that starts big then gets bigger. If it doesnt expand the round i choose is still going to leave a .45 hole.

Ive carried both 45 and 9mm ive hunted rabbit and coyote with both the 45 gets it done better. And yes i rabbit hunt with handguns. Its a big challenge in stalking and accuracy.

The best i can do is apply real world hunting of game to sd. Its not like its legal to go round shooting people to prove something on the interweb...

Im not saying anything but a 45 is worthless. My wife will be using a 9mm for oc/ccw she shoots the xdm 9mm very very well she doesnt shoot my 45 xdm as good. Im very comfy trusting her life and mine to her 9mm.

If there was such a thing as the perfect handgun there wouldnt be a zillion different calibers and designs.

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Old 09-20-2011, 04:17 PM   #27
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Historically, we've seen a lot of returns to older, tried and true methods,

in and out of the gun world.

The Military is now looking to replace the M9 pistol with something

which has a harder hitting round?(Like the 1911A1 the M9 replaced?)

As to reloading vs factory ammo, it's like cheap vs expensive

liquor or cigars.

My first reloads were like Cuban cigars, or Stolichnaya Vodka.
Smooth and hard-hitting.


The only factory cartridges I've fired which came close were high-end
Hornady, and very expensive.

Cost aside, there's just no comparison to reloads and

regularly priced factory ammo. If you factor in the additional expense

of double the cost for premium ammo which would actually shoot

like what you reload, the economy of reloading becomes transparently cheap.

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Old 09-20-2011, 10:52 PM   #28
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if your sole point is a hit by a lesser round is more effective than a miss by a tac-nuke... then we should all just use airsoft.
Was that question for me JonM?? If so, it would be easier to have a discussion about the article if you went ahead and read the article first.... because that was definitely not the point of it.

-RJP
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:19 AM   #29
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For YEARS I was in the "45 is the ONLY thing to carry, and it better damned well be a 1911" camp. In fact, my choosing of a police department to work for was based in large part on the APPROVED WEAPON LIST.

As I got a little older, and found out I wasn't as smart as I thought I was in my youthful exuberance and arrogance, and that I could actually learn new things...I tried out a Glock 17 at the range one day. I wasn't "anti" 9mm. I owned several Browning Hi Power pistols, and loved the heck out of them, but I was a 1911 guy.

After getting a feel for the Glock 17, I found it was a "hitter". If I did my job...that plastic sissy pistol would put them bb's right where they needed to be. It weighed a WHOLE lot less with more ballistic payload than my 5" 1911 (I was carrying a Wilson Combat Series 70 Colt back then). Thinking about the equipment I had to carry on my belt back then...the radio weighed nearly a metric ton. The six cell Mag Lite, PLUS the mandated PR24, two sets of cuffs, Buck folder (pre-Spyderco days)....my belt was heavy and my back always seemed to be sore.

I went and jumped the broom and bought a Glock 17. I spent a lot of time with it, and went from shooting 290-295 quals to shooting 300. The Federal 9BP round was available then, and Ayoob said it was a fine stopper, and it was accurate as a laser beam out of the Glock 17. As soon as Safariland had an SSIII retention holster on the market I started carrying it on duty as well as off duty. Then...boom....I had a 19 and a 26 for off duty and backup.

I went back to the 45 for a while, carrying a Glock 21 and 30 as duty weapons after an officer in another part of AZ got into a shooting with a subject while off duty and emptied his 9mm into the subject before the fight ended. It turns out the officer was carrying 115 fmj ammo....hence the horrible performance of the 9mm.

Finally....I settled on the Glock 22 3rd Gen as offered as an issue weapon by the department. I thought heaven had opened all it's secrets to me, and I had been blessed by THE ULTIMATE FIGHTING HANDGUN. For the most part that has been true. I really like the Glock 22, and really REALLY like my Glock 22RTF.

But...in shooting steel twice a week and IDPA once a month, I realized that I shoot my 3rd Gen Glock 17 faster and a bit more accurately on any given stage. On the old "El Presidente" which is a GREAT baseline for testing yourself...I shoot it in an average 6.3 with the 17 and 6.9 with the 22.

That totally supports (to me) Rob's assertion. In fact, I have found myself carrying a my old 2nd Gen Glock 19 more and more. It's like an old friend, and the ammo we have available nowadays is VASTLY superior to anything we had even 10 years ago in any given caliber.

I am scouring the internet and my gun-guy to try to find a 19RTF and a 17RTF. I am planning on making the switch too. Add to that, I just got my new 9mm AR...what a combo.

This is NOT a GLOCK IS GREAT thread...lots of GREAT 9mms are out there now. Glock is just what works for me. The XD, XDm, M&P, SR9....list goes on and on...so don't get my intention wrong on this one Glock haters! ;^)

So...after that LONG preamble, this is directed at Rob: In your opinion...what's the best 9mm ammo available today? I have been carrying the Hornady XTP 124gr +P JHP.

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Old 09-21-2011, 09:42 AM   #30
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I guess, according to the article, that I should toss my 1911. Not enough rounds, not fast enough, too expensive to shoot.

Not

I plink with 9mm, .22, .380 etc., but I practice with a 1911. When I carry a 1911, I never worry about having enough gun.

I subscribe to long held tradition that goes back to the cave man: If you are going to throw rocks, throw the biggest rock you can handle. Small rocks work if you can hit the eye, but larger rocks are more versatile.

If I were going into a crowded space and attempting to injure as many folks as possible, I would want a large capacity, small caliber handgun that had as much over-penetration as possible. If I were defending such a situation, I would prefer accurate shot placement with a known man stopper.

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