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Old 11-28-2010, 10:41 PM   #11
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my personal choice for location i a gunfight...the next county...

god examples...although i am left wondering the effectiveness of the rounds after they have penetrated the concrete wall...i'm not saying they wouldnt hurt but its gotta take some of the fluff out of the round...i know you continued to shoot until you routed a big enough hole to effectively take open shots at whomever is behind the wall..but anyone who sticks around that long while shots are being peppered into the wall deserves what theyve got coming...and staying low behind a concrete wall is probably best as the shots someone takes at the wall will more likely be center mass attempts and they are blind to your actual position...

another concern behind a vehicle is skipping bullets under it and making good hits on a prone body hiding behind it...i know this is why you recommend being behind a front wheel/engine compartment but there isnt a lot of room behind the wheel and its still a crap shoot...

good test and i'm sure it opened some eyes when they realized how well bullets penetrate what tv shows seem to show as impenetrable obstacles....the cops behind the car doors always worries me...



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Old 11-29-2010, 01:04 AM   #12
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I am going with the wall. You have a much higher chance for survival if your position cannot be pinpointed. If you see holes walking down the wall at you, you could defensively move, or allow them waste their ammo and engage on the reload. If sight is blocked then a retreat to gain a better position may be an option. You could try a distraction, and then acquire the target while they are distracted. A radio or cell phone could increase your numbers.

To adequately answer this more info is necessary.



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Old 11-30-2010, 09:48 PM   #13
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Hey Sarge, What if you were caught in your car and taking fire. What would the best defensive position to take? And lets say getting out of the car is not an option.

Also what is your take on training DVDs to supplement hands on training? I may PM you on a series i am looking at.

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Old 11-30-2010, 11:39 PM   #14
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Your pretty much SOL in your car, only safe place in or around a car is behind in engine block.....best bet is getting the car moving and getting out of there.

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Old 11-30-2010, 11:40 PM   #15
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Default In car huh

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Originally Posted by theferg2000 View Post
Hey Sarge, What if you were caught in your car and taking fire. What would the best defensive position to take? And lets say getting out of the car is not an option.

Also what is your take on training DVDs to supplement hands on training? I may PM you on a series i am looking at.
I am going to assume that the vehicle is disabled by the firefight. Because if it is not the I would be using my 2000 lb. weapon to mow the field.

OK most bad guys will shoot at the drivers door so that is out. The back seat has no heavy metal around it so it is out. I would say curled up in a ball under the passenger side between the seat and the glove box. I would have said the drivers side but with all the pedals and electric wires in that area it would be too small and a fire danger. Interesting question I will put that question to my instructors tomorrow at the police academy.

Hands on is always the best but not the easiest to do, with weather, range reservations, time required for travel and qualified instructors scarcity. So most all if not all departments use the very good computer projected CD's. In my town we use them and some of them are homemade by the officers themselves. Which makes it even better because you can ask the guy standing right there questions about the film.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:38 AM   #16
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Default From Sir Winston Churchill...

"Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result."

I must say the idea of 'hiding' in a gunfight is self-defeating. If one is hiding, one looses track of the antagonist. That puts the antagonist in control and time to find one.

Human nature - at least in our society and era - tends to encourage one to find refuge - or in the language of the day, 'cover'. This is sadly counter productive when being attacked. Modern law enforcement technique and doctrine call for retreating and calling for back up. Perhaps getting the SWAT involved. IF, and it can be a big IF, one can retreat and await reinforcement, so much the better. However, there are times when retreat is simply not an option. (The infamous North Hollywood Bank shootout, the Miami shootout and nearly any ambuscade come to mind).

In these cases, the only clear path to safety is the disabling of the attacker. The only way to do that is to know the attacker's position and deal as the situation demands.

The cinder block wall is a temporary position of 'relative' safety. However, if the officer - or common citizen victim - loses the location of the aggressor, the aggressor has the clear advantage. Movement and observation must be employed.

I tend to discourage people from going prone. Bullets tend to almost slide along the ground into a prone body.

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Old 12-01-2010, 02:23 AM   #17
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Default saw that and learned fast!!

Went to a school that showed almost the same thing but they used ak 47s (i am military) and that lead to the next topic don't stop moving until the bad guys can't move.

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Old 12-02-2010, 03:46 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by theferg2000 View Post
Hey Sarge, What if you were caught in your car and taking fire. What would the best defensive position to take? And lets say getting out of the car is not an option.

Also what is your take on training DVDs to supplement hands on training? I may PM you on a series i am looking at.
I asked my training officer at the Police Academy your question and he pretty well agreed with my answer.
Down on the floor pan on the passenger side. He also added, that if possible turn your vehicle toward the danger(incoming rounds) and stay there until the shooting stops.
Modern police cars are so full of computers and equipment that the passenger side is the only place available he added.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:07 PM   #19
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It is so nice not to get paid to run to the sound of gun fire anymore!

Seriously...engine block and big brake rotor and steel wheels between the threat and my tender hide. Failing that, I want to be in a nice hole in the ground...preferably with sandbags and 12" log berms and breastworks.

The real important thing to remember is that concealment is not cover.

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Old 12-02-2010, 08:37 PM   #20
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Here is a great site-- check it out
Penetration tests on doors glass, cars, walls etc--enjoy
The Box O' Truth - The Box O' Truth
The Box O' Truth #14 - Rifles, Shotguns, and Walls - Page 1
The Box O' Truth - The Buick O' Truth



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