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-   -   Tueller Establishes NO Rules (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f55/tueller-establishes-no-rules-6513/)

BigO01 08-24-2008 11:18 AM

Tueller Establishes NO Rules
 
There is a huge misconception running around "Especially on Gun Forums" that the Tueller Drill somehow establishes a hard and fast distance Rule that applies when one is about to face a knife/club threat .

While one is never justified in shooting a person at extended ranges of 10-20+ yards when armed with a knife or club it is never to early to prepare to deal with an obvious threat .

The range you begin to start the draw is dictated by various factors like how you are carrying your weapon to if your hands are full with something and include the speed at which the threat is advancing on you .

If you're exiting a store after a shopping trip and are in the process of strapping your infant child into his car seat and someone yells a threat at you from 50 yards and begins advancing at a quick walk the time to give the threat your utmost attention and begin reaching for your gun is NOW not when he reaches the 21 foot mark of you .

If you are carrying in an ankle holster or a purse and you wait till he is 21 feet away odds are you're dead .

If one has done much reading on the drill you will quickly see that if one takes it as a "Rule" they are making a huge mistake because a quickly approaching threat will be right on top of you by the time you fire the first shot if you start with a holstered weapon .

All of this also only supposes a single attacker if you find yourself facing two or more attackers even if only wielding clubs or bats the distance at which you need to engage becomes greater .

Tueller is a reaction time drill/demonstration NOT A RULE and it most certainly doesn't apply to a firearm threat .

c3shooter 08-24-2008 01:58 PM

IMHO, problem with going from ANY of the drills to real life, most folks are 2-5 seconds or so into a mugging before they are able to make the mental leap from condition of peace to condition of being attacked. You are already behind the power curve. While many people can quote the FBI stat on number of shootings that take place at 7 yds or less, most miss the percentage that take place at 2 FEET or less- in contact. How did they get that close? Well, you waited too long, due to fear of drawing a weapon. I can only repeat advice that has been offered multiple times- be aware of what is going on around you. And if you find that you are in a fair fight, your planning was faulty.

Jay 08-24-2008 02:08 PM

Threat thresholds vary from person-to-person. Any one person's level of situational awareness will serve to establish the proximity threshold ONLY for that person. Without practice, one's threshold distance can only decrease. Practice increases distance, and distance is your friend.

just my 2 cents worth

RL357Mag 08-24-2008 08:31 PM

Again, every situation is different, and as such, no contrite answer is going to suffice. In the example given above, for instance, if I was strapping my infant into a car seat and someone started yelling threats at me from 50 yds. away, my first and foremost responsibility would be to protect my infant. That does not mean drawing my weapon and having a shootout in a parking lot with my infant exposed to flying lead. In most states, you are not allowed to draw a weapon based on a "perceived" threat, and particularly if no weapon is displayed. My reaction would be driven by the logistics of the situation and how quickly they are changing. If the threat did not display a gun, I would probably drive off. If there was not enough time to drive off, or if the threat had a gun I would close the door to the car and attempt to lure the threat away from the car so, if needed, I could get a clear shot without exposing my infant or any onlookers to shots fired. These discussions are ridiculous in that every situation is different, and the space/time continuum changes quickly within a given situation, requiring the ability to adjust as changes dictate. All situations are dymanic, NOT static, and therefore there IS no one-size-fits-all solution. The only constant is to be adept with your weapon and your ability to maintain a high level of awareness of the situation as it unfolds.

supergus 08-25-2008 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RL357Mag (Post 37669)
Again, every situation is different, and as such, no contrite answer is going to suffice. In the example given above, for instance, if I was strapping my infant into a car seat and someone started yelling threats at me from 50 yds. away, my first and foremost responsibility would be to protect my infant. That does not mean drawing my weapon and having a shootout in a parking lot with my infant exposed to flying lead. In most states, you are not allowed to draw a weapon based on a "perceived" threat, and particularly if no weapon is displayed. My reaction would be driven by the logistics of the situation and how quickly they are changing. If the threat did not display a gun, I would probably drive off. If there was not enough time to drive off, or if the threat had a gun I would close the door to the car and attempt to lure the threat away from the car so, if needed, I could get a clear shot without exposing my infant or any onlookers to shots fired. These discussions are ridiculous in that every situation is different, and the space/time continuum changes quickly within a given situation, requiring the ability to adjust as changes dictate. All situations are dymanic, NOT static, and therefore there IS no one-size-fits-all solution. The only constant is to be adept with your weapon and your ability to maintain a high level of awareness of the situation as it unfolds.

I agree. I use the data from the Tueller Drill as a mental reference point, a reminder to myself that a threat can overwhelm me much more quickly than one might think. It just makes me practice quicker and smoother draws, and getting off accurate shots faster.

robocop10mm 08-26-2008 07:13 PM

Newer studies indicate 30 feet is a proper threshold rather than the older 21 feet. Again, it all depends. I am fortunate that I am not held to the CCW rules about drawing ones gun as I do not have a CCW, I have a Badge. I do not have the fear of getting crosswise with the law about keeping it concealed. On the otherhand, because of my training and experience, I will be judged at a different level.

For those who have CCW permits, it is still a dangerous world both from criminals and from the legal system.

As with most if not all drills there are pitfalls. If you practice "double taps" Murphey's Law will kick in and it will require 3 shots to put the bad guy down. If you practice Mozambique drills, you will be accused of using excessive force and executing the poor misunderstood urchin.

The only rule of a gun fight is WIN! Victory can be defined in a number of different ways. Victory may be shooting the bad guy before he can shoot you. Victory may be not getting shot (even if you do not shoot the bad guy). Victory may be in avoidance, but it is hard to call it a gun fight if you una$$ed the area before a shot was fired.

I have never lost a gunfight, that is why I am able to type these words.

I have avoided many gunfights over the last 24 years so I can safely say I have won every gunfight I was in (by not getting in it in the first place)

This certainly does not mean I have never had to draw my weapon. On the contrary I have had to do so on dozens of occasions. I was able to convince the other guy that it would be a very bad decision to continue with his course of action (and quite possibly a final decision on his part).

ranger_sxt 08-28-2008 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robocop10mm (Post 37951)
As with most if not all drills there are pitfalls. If you practice "double taps" Murphey's Law will kick in and it will require 3 shots to put the bad guy down. If you practice Mozambique drills, you will be accused of using excessive force and executing the poor misunderstood urchin.

Which is why every Agency and every private training organization is now teaching "Shoot 'till he is no longer a threat..."

Rentacop 09-20-2008 05:07 AM

The Teuller drill is illustrated in the Calibre Press video, " Surviving Edged Weapons ".
The video shows that for a cop to draw and place two hits center of mass against a charging attacker with a knife, the cop would have to be 21 feet from the attacker at the outset.
The video does not address the likelyhood of the suspect hesitating or abandoning his headlong rush into gunfire .
Of course, two hits may fail to stop a charging attacker . The rule of thumb should be : If someone is charging you with a knife, regardless of distance , use your gun, not your tape measure. If there is no time to draw, use empty hand tactics etc.

Rentacop

gorknoids 09-21-2008 04:36 AM

Forget the yardstick.

SGT-MILLER 09-21-2008 02:20 PM

Forget the 30 foot rule also. If someone has a knife, looks to do harm, and has their attention on you, you'd better have your weapon presented, and ready for action.

Another point, is that it is extremely hard to hit a moving target. Even trained people will miss.


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