traing thought...
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > traing thought...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-07-2014, 03:27 PM   #1
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jjfuller1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: a place between here and there.
Posts: 4,455
Liked 1151 Times on 751 Posts
Likes Given: 690

Default training thought...

so this crossed my mind today. and i thought id see what you thought.

for defensive or tactical training often instructors will say to add dummy rounds randomly in a magazine. this is supposed to help you train in the event you have a misfire or some sort of malfunction. i do think this is something that would be good to know. now my thought also came to this. lots of people reload there ammo due to how much they train, or shoot. so the situation i had in my mind is...

your at a defensive training event going through drills with malfunctions. you are using reloaded ammo. well we all make mistakes and instead of a dummy round you actually encounter a problem.. a squib...what do you do? and how should we prepare for this?

often we preach if any malfunctions happen to check the barrel before continuing. but with that in mind we are also training to clear malfunctions and resume firing.

so again i say.. what would happen in this scenerio?

i myself couldnt think up a good answer. other than im probly buying a new gun that day...

__________________
I have been a silent witness
to all of America's finest hours.
But my finest hour comes
when I am torn into strips and used as bandages
for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I fly at half-mast to honor my soldiers,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms
of a grieving mother
at the graveside of her fallen son.

Last edited by jjfuller1; 07-07-2014 at 10:58 PM.
jjfuller1 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today - It's Free!

Are you a firearms enthusiast? Then we hope you will join the community. You will gain access to post, create threads, private message, upload images, join groups and more.

Firearms Talk is owned and operated by fellow firearms enthusiasts. We strive to offer a non-commercial community to learn and share information.

Join FirearmsTalk.com Today! - Click Here


Old 07-07-2014, 03:40 PM   #2
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Mercator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,194
Liked 2225 Times on 1554 Posts
Likes Given: 1151

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfuller1 View Post
so this crozsed my mind today. and i thought id see what you thought.

for defensive or tactical training often instructors will say to add dummy rounds randomly in a magazine. this is supposed to help you train in the event you have a misfire or some sort of malfunction. i do think this is something that would be good to know. now my thought also came to this. lots of people reload there ammo due to how much they train, or shoot. so the situation i had in my mind is...

your at a defensive training event going through drills with malfunctions. you are using reloaded ammo. well we all make mistakes and instead of a dummy round you actually encounter a problem.. a squib...what do you do? and how should we prepare for this?

often we preach if any malfunctions happen to check the barrel before continuing. but with that in mind we are also training to clear malfunctions and resume firing.

so again i say.. what would happen in this scenerio?

i myself couldnt think up a good answer. other than im probly buying a new gun that day...
There is no need to use reloads for defensive purposes. They are for targets and plinking.
__________________
"You can't reason with a flying crowbar"
Mercator is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 04:17 PM   #3
McCool@email.com
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
MisterMcCool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bumfugg, Egypt
Posts: 8,663
Liked 7456 Times on 4068 Posts
Likes Given: 15348

Default

Back up


No offense and none taken

__________________

No offense and none taken (̿▀̿ ̿Ĺ̯̿̿▀̿ ̿)̄

MisterMcCool is offline  
purehavoc Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 05:29 PM   #4
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochester WI,Rochester WI
Posts: 17,748
Liked 5801 Times on 3029 Posts
Likes Given: 397

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfuller1 View Post
so this crozsed my mind today. and i thought id see what you thought.

for defensive or tactical training often instructors will say to add dummy rounds randomly in a magazine. this is supposed to help you train in the event you have a misfire or some sort of malfunction. i do think this is something that would be good to know. now my thought also came to this. lots of people reload there ammo due to how much they train, or shoot. so the situation i had in my mind is...

your at a defensive training event going through drills with malfunctions. you are using reloaded ammo. well we all make mistakes and instead of a dummy round you actually encounter a problem.. a squib...what do you do? and how should we prepare for this?

often we preach if any malfunctions happen to check the barrel before continuing. but with that in mind we are also training to clear malfunctions and resume firing.

so again i say.. what would happen in this scenerio?

i myself couldnt think up a good answer. other than im probly buying a new gun that day...
life is on the line click no bang, rack the slide try again.

if your just training click no bang check the bore before loading a fesh round.


guns that i rely on for self defense get complete spring overhauls at the first sign of wear or rough cycling. or every couple thousand rounds.

depends on the malfunction, if it recurs after re-building with fresh springs i sell it and get a new one.

i do a LOT of handling but i use factory ammo for self defense. its not that i cannot assemble ammo that works perfectly, its the fact that the primers i use have been on the shelf for a while or sitting in transit or in a warehouse under unknown conditions. this means its possible to have them corrupted by humidity. factory ammo doesnt tend to have this issue since the time between assembly and primer creation is much shorter.

last weekend i went to the range with the scar17 and ran into about 30 rounds that had corrupted primers. how they became that way i dont know. but it happens with handloads.
__________________

"Gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound." — L. Neil Smith

The problem with being stupid is you cannot simply decide to stop doing dumb things...


Last edited by JonM; 07-07-2014 at 05:35 PM.
JonM is offline  
c3shooter Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2014, 10:57 PM   #5
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
jjfuller1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: a place between here and there.
Posts: 4,455
Liked 1151 Times on 751 Posts
Likes Given: 690

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercator View Post
There is no need to use reloads for defensive purposes. They are for targets and plinking.
your missing the point. this is a training situation. you are shooting at targets..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterMcCool View Post
Back up


No offense and none taken
if a gun explodes in my hand i doubt i'll reach for a backup.. but good input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonM View Post
life is on the line click no bang, rack the slide try again.

if your just training click no bang check the bore before loading a fesh round.


guns that i rely on for self defense get complete spring overhauls at the first sign of wear or rough cycling. or every couple thousand rounds.

depends on the malfunction, if it recurs after re-building with fresh springs i sell it and get a new one.

i do a LOT of handling but i use factory ammo for self defense. its not that i cannot assemble ammo that works perfectly, its the fact that the primers i use have been on the shelf for a while or sitting in transit or in a warehouse under unknown conditions. this means its possible to have them corrupted by humidity. factory ammo doesnt tend to have this issue since the time between assembly and primer creation is much shorter.

last weekend i went to the range with the scar17 and ran into about 30 rounds that had corrupted primers. how they became that way i dont know. but it happens with handloads.
you have a decent grasp at what im asking... its training... training to prepare yourself for the real thing. so how would you handle it?

training is to help you with many things. muscle memory, awareness, speed and accuracy and the list goes on.

for the training to be effective you need to move at your most proffiicent speed. stopping during training would defeat the purpose of training for malfunctions.

i know its a what if type of question, but i found it to be pretty interesting to think over.
__________________
I have been a silent witness
to all of America's finest hours.
But my finest hour comes
when I am torn into strips and used as bandages
for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I fly at half-mast to honor my soldiers,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms
of a grieving mother
at the graveside of her fallen son.
jjfuller1 is offline  
MisterMcCool Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 12:09 AM   #6
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Mercator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Indiana
Posts: 5,194
Liked 2225 Times on 1554 Posts
Likes Given: 1151

Default

Sorry, I meant defensive training as well. I do not want to risk a squib or a kaboom while practicing for self-defense. By shooting targets I meant traditional scoring, in this context.

__________________
"You can't reason with a flying crowbar"
Mercator is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 12:29 AM   #7
Moderator
FTF_MODERATOR.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JonM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Rochester WI,Rochester WI
Posts: 17,748
Liked 5801 Times on 3029 Posts
Likes Given: 397

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjfuller1 View Post
your missing the point. this is a training situation. you are shooting at targets..

if a gun explodes in my hand i doubt i'll reach for a backup.. but good input.



you have a decent grasp at what im asking... its training... training to prepare yourself for the real thing. so how would you handle it?

training is to help you with many things. muscle memory, awareness, speed and accuracy and the list goes on.

for the training to be effective you need to move at your most proffiicent speed. stopping during training would defeat the purpose of training for malfunctions.

i know its a what if type of question, but i found it to be pretty interesting to think over.
well if you want to train for failure drill just load up some dummy rounds no powder no primer mix them in with the regular ammo.

however, i think its better to train with safety in mind as the occurance of a squib is exponentially higher than a failure during a self defense situation...

if you train army style S(lap)P(ull)O(bserve)R(elease)T(ap)S(hoot) at some point you ARE going to get a squib and hard coding that into muscle memory and you end up doing this...

this clown was employing SPORTS and he kaboomed himself on a squib.


i think your better off training stoppages and examining the bore before proceeding. once you get familiar with a firearm and you have a sd situation and you have a stoppage your not going to disassemble the firearm or range rod it. thats a little obvious.

if you want to train catastrophic fail put an empty in the mag.

personally i do not go out of my way to train fail drills. its taken me years to get SPORTS to stop being muscle memmory.
__________________

"Gun control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound." — L. Neil Smith

The problem with being stupid is you cannot simply decide to stop doing dumb things...

JonM is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2014, 05:30 PM   #8
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
7point62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Decisive Terrain
Posts: 2,040
Liked 1361 Times on 691 Posts
Likes Given: 1015

Default

I'd never bet my life on reloaded ammo. That's just me. In SD I want performance-tested high-quality factory loads. If you get a squib in a firefight and you don't have a secondary, there's nothing you can do. A misfeed, a stovepipe, a jam you can clear pretty fast but catastrophic fail isn't something you can immediately correct. While I understand the importance of training to clear a malfunction, why would catastrophic fail even enter into a "tactical" training scenario? You see what I mean? The weapon is dead. Your training is supposed to prepare you for the real deal. When the SHTF your options are severly limited. McCool is right...blown off fingers from a squib you still better have a backup. That's why God gave you two hands.

__________________
Stay smart, stay motivated, stay dangerous

Last edited by 7point62; 07-08-2014 at 05:33 PM.
7point62 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2014, 05:00 PM   #9
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 50
Liked 9 Times on 7 Posts
Likes Given: 6

Default

Rely on hand to hand at that point. After all, you still have a beat down stick (or hammer)

But in all reality, cycling the weapon and firing again IF its a no sit life or death situation is probably the best idea. I mean, yes you will destroy your weapon, but I would think one of the projectiles will still leave the barrel, even if at a much lower velocity. That should still be enough to injure somebody...

__________________
kott is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Never thought id say this.... kaido Range Report 16 09-24-2013 07:13 AM
Here's A Thought..... firedawg60 Legal and Activism 0 12-24-2012 02:45 AM
Good traing exercises? shawn_c2000 Survival & Sustenance Living Forum 9 12-08-2012 01:51 AM
can you do this? just a thought spuddog14 AR-15 Discussion 7 11-06-2010 05:03 AM
Just a thought Dzscubie The Club House 11 10-09-2010 07:38 PM