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Old 01-18-2009, 02:44 PM   #11
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By your last statement I can tell that you have alot to learn, but I am curious on what your opinion is on how to better train for reality.

The intent of these videos was to show people some nice little techniques that they can incorporate into their training.

You can go ahead and dismiss these guys if you want. These guys have multiple championships and these guys are at the range shooting every day (they are Army enlisted so that's all they do). They train with sidearms, shotguns, and rifles. They are members of the US Army Marksman Unit which is known for their involvement in tactical training and weapons of all kinds. They perform IPSC along with multiple other tactical training events for a living.

Please inform us on what your opinion is, but unless you can come up with a better resume that these guys, I'm going to tend to look at you as another internet warrior.



What caliber guns do you think these guys are using?

How is shooting on the move not a good training for reality?

How is performing a quick side-saddle reload on a shotgun (they are popular on shotguns) not a good training for reality?

How is performing quick reloads not a good training for reality?

I'm just trying to learn more also, so if you have some knowledge, please educate us. I'm always willing to learn more. There's no such thing as learning enough.

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Old 01-18-2009, 08:09 PM   #12
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well you say you are interested in learning, yet you actually learned nothing from my post.
My first lesson to you is to listen better.
Second lesson is to gain better control of you're ego.

I think perhaps, these fellows you speak of do have many IPSC championships, and I'm sure you are very proud of them for that.

However, training for reality would involve shooting the gun you plan to use to save your life with someday. Meaning, it probably is not some extended magazine, compensated, scoped pistol that is impossible to conceal. Also, it will probably NOT be shooting reduced loads.
And, reloading from external mag carriers on the belt is all well and good, until you find yourself in the REAL world having to reload in a hurry, grabbing for your "IPSC" setup, and finding nothing there
That, my friend, is the 64,000 dollar mistake

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Old 01-18-2009, 08:13 PM   #13
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Please keep it civil folks.

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Old 01-18-2009, 09:26 PM   #14
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Use the training provided in these videos and ADAPT them to your situation.

Fast reloads apply to ALL firearms.

Effectively shooting on the move applies to ALL firearms.

You are trying to concentrate on the fact that a few of their weapons of choice are tuned IPSC guns. I will point out that the Glock used in the video is a production Glock. That is what he uses in the production class, so it cannot be overly tuned.

You are focusing on the completely wrong things here, and not what the videos are trying to convey. The videos are trying to convey the importance of training. Adapt them to your situation, and try to learn from them. If you are going to focus on the gear alone without looking at the tactics then you are completely missing the point.

Can you please answer the questions I presented to you earlier? I am still curious how training for fast reloads / moving while shooting / etc... does not apply to real-world situations.

I hope no one is viewing me as having a big ego right now. I will challenge that it would seem that maybe you have the bigger ego here.

Quote:
personally, I carry a handgun in as large and powerful caliber as can be reasonably handled. Obviously, a 44 magnum is probably too much recoil ( and probably much more power than needed on a person). I carry a 45 shooting 230 grain hollow points at @820fps.
If I wasnt worried about self defense (or was punching holes in targets for a trophy), I might shoot a lighter bullet at less fps.
Sir, my ego is in check, and so is my attitude. I am merely challenging your statements. Since this thread will be potentially viewed by lots of people, I will challenge any comment which I feel may be confusing or inaccurate to the readers.

I am waiting respectfully and intently on your response.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:39 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
By your last statement I can tell that you have alot to learn, but I am curious on what your opinion is on how to better train for reality.

The intent of these videos was to show people some nice little techniques that they can incorporate into their training.

You can go ahead and dismiss these guys if you want. These guys have multiple championships and these guys are at the range shooting every day (they are Army enlisted so that's all they do). They train with sidearms, shotguns, and rifles. They are members of the US Army Marksman Unit which is known for their involvement in tactical training and weapons of all kinds. They perform IPSC along with multiple other tactical training events for a living.

Please inform us on what your opinion is, but unless you can come up with a better resume that these guys, I'm going to tend to look at you as another internet warrior.



What caliber guns do you think these guys are using?

How is shooting on the move not a good training for reality?

How is performing a quick side-saddle reload on a shotgun (they are popular on shotguns) not a good training for reality?

How is performing quick reloads not a good training for reality?

I'm just trying to learn more also, so if you have some knowledge, please educate us. I'm always willing to learn more. There's no such thing as learning enough.

the guy in the photo is pretty fat, I'll give you that.

here is another one....

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Old 01-19-2009, 12:57 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
Use the training provided in these videos and ADAPT them to your situation.

Fast reloads apply to ALL firearms.

Effectively shooting on the move applies to ALL firearms.

You are trying to concentrate on the fact that a few of their weapons of choice are tuned IPSC guns. I will point out that the Glock used in the video is a production Glock. That is what he uses in the production class, so it cannot be overly tuned.

You are focusing on the completely wrong things here, and not what the videos are trying to convey. The videos are trying to convey the importance of training. Adapt them to your situation, and try to learn from them. If you are going to focus on the gear alone without looking at the tactics then you are completely missing the point.

Can you please answer the questions I presented to you earlier? I am still curious how training for fast reloads / moving while shooting / etc... does not apply to real-world situations.

I hope no one is viewing me as having a big ego right now. I will challenge that it would seem that maybe you have the bigger ego here.

Sir, my ego is in check, and so is my attitude. I am merely challenging your statements. Since this thread will be potentially viewed by lots of people, I will challenge any comment which I feel may be confusing or inaccurate to the readers.

I am waiting respectfully and intently on your response.
You are, in you're words, challenging my statements. So, let me clarify further.
If you are too train, it should be with the gun you will be carrying. If you are teaching survival tactics, it should not be with some special "competition" firearm.

Now, onto tactics.
I do not consider the tactics taught on reloading, with either the handgun OR shotgun, to be correct.
In both videos, the instructor tells us to take our eyes off of the threat/environment in order to recharge our firearm.
I do not think this is good practice.

My experience comes from Gunsite.

Here is a short video on reloading a shotgun.


At gunsite we are taught to train in such a way that we do not need to look away from the threat or threats in order to reload.

Now, you have you're method's and I have mine. Everyone has their own opinion on how these things should be done. I can respect that.

However, my original post on this thread was in regards to using reduced loads or competition guns to teach methodology. I disagree with it.
I do understand that he went to a glock afterwards. However, it did appear to me as if the glock had very little recoil. Perhaps some of his competition reduced loads made their way into the gun?

Regardless of this, I disagreed with the tactics of looking at your reload while in combat. While I'm sure this is faster in an IPSC shoot, I dont think it is "better" in actual combat.
my two cents
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Old 01-19-2009, 01:53 AM   #17
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There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you posted.

That is where to take what is in the videos and adapt them for your training.

I've been through alot of different training classes myself, and I currently conduct training on effectively using carbines and sidearms in combat for my unit.

The best thing I like to do is take from multiple different training styles, and adapt them. I find that you end up with a very fluid "style" if you will that will easily adapt to changing enviornments.

One example is how they train in IPSC to hold your pistol. You would hold your pistol out in front of you with full extension of your arms in with a good neutral grip. This is a good way to hold your pistol in a range envoirnment, but as soon as you move to an enviornment where you are running, crawling, yelling, shooting, going through urban settings, going indoors, etc..... you find that this pistol hold is very impractical, very uncomfortable, and dangerous (you can be stripped of the sidearm in close-quarters situations).

To each their own. Everyone has their own limitations or preferences. As long as you can put your rounds "between the shirt pockets" when/if the time comes, that's what matters.

I will respectfully retract my statement that you have alot to learn. You have provided some good points to your discussion, and this is a perfect example of different strokes for different folks.

P.S. Another example would be that I train completely different for reloads. I usually train that, if permitting, you need to achieve some type of cover before reloading. The only time you should perform a reload while standing, and stationary, is if there is no other alternative. I still think the lessons presented in these videos would be good starting point for someone trying to learn the ropes.

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Last edited by SGT-MILLER; 01-19-2009 at 01:56 AM.
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Old 01-19-2009, 03:34 AM   #18
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completely agree on taking cover when available during reloads...or shooting from around cover whenever possible.
and using the cover effectively too. Too often I'll see people using cover, but sticking their head and shoulders out for bad guy target practice, just because it is easier or faster.
i agree that every situation is different and i also admit to having much to learn.

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Old 02-17-2009, 07:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
Some good basic tips for all the shooters out there.

Shooting on the move:
YouTube - Army Pro Tips: SSG Max Michael Shooting on the Move

Quick reloads:
YouTube - Army Pro Tips: CPL Travis Tomasie Speed Reloads

Shotgun reload tips:
YouTube - Army Pro Tips: SSG Johnson, PFC Horner Shotgun Reloading

I think these may be good to watch and adapt to fit your own needs.
Thanks for the tips, these are really very useful.
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