SGT-MILLER Training Thread #2: Adapting - Page 3
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:02 AM   #21
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First video easily ten. Got any more, lol. I love watching these cop vids. Second one sound like it was from British Broadcasting. Guess they like to watch our boys in action.
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Old 04-16-2009, 03:21 AM   #22
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sounds like they are making fun of the cops in the second video:

"fingers on their triggers ready to go" lol!

That last vid is badass, that b!tch had some mad skills, but I bet the truth of it was that she forgot to put the car in park LOL!!!
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Old 04-16-2009, 09:51 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volomon View Post
I think cops are taught to keep the BG beyond 21 feet. Though that is not how close he will be when he attacks.
No, that is not the case in the slightest. Measure 21 feet out. There is no way you can have a conversation at that distance, let alone keep everyone outside that range.

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I was going to ask some questions, but I'm not sure. Since the opinion was based on false info. Also 21 feet is 7 yards. Thats easily hit with any subcompact. So I'm not sure about carrying a full service pistol. Don't LEO use SC for back up?
That was not my intent in the slightest on posting that one challenging that one statement. Everything else he posted was pretty spot on.

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7 yards is not the average engagement, its the average LEGAL range for engagement, as this is the distance a person with a knife can cross that distance and stab you. What are you a SGT of exactly? I know they teach this to LEOs. The reason people practice at this range is because anything beyond this would most likely land you in prison for forcing the situation against a target that posed no threat.
No, you are wrong.

Training at 21 feet started when people were listening to Gunsite. Cooper's initial work was on steel targets, and 21 feet is the minimum safe distance to shoot at them.

Then Bill Tueller made a drill that opened people's eyes to the realities of fighting. People misunderstood this, and decided that 21 feet was where you were allowed to engage.

The reality of the Tueller drill was to show how quickly people could cover distances, that if you stood and took perfect aim, in your perfect stance, you would wind up getting killed. You had to incorporate movement and alternative sighting methods into your gunfighting repertoire.


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P.S. At a distance of 8-10 feet or less, you will not get your firearm to "clear leather" before the BG is on top of you. At that close distance (which sometimes can be only about arms length or slightly more) you need to worry more about hand-to-hand techniques, and defensive drills for gaining some distance from your attacker before you even think about drawing your weapon.
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At these ranges you should add martial arts to your gun skills. At the very least learn the pull and twist engagement.
And those are both 100% correct. We, as shooters, can no longer live in a vacuum of defense, deciding that your handguns will be able to solve all of the problems. If your self-defense tool box does not include at least some very basic hand-to-hand work, you are setting yourself up for failure.
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Old 04-17-2009, 03:01 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volomon View Post
7 yards is not the average engagement, its the average LEGAL range for engagement, as this is the distance a person with a knife can cross that distance and stab you. What are you a SGT of exactly? I know they teach this to LEOs. The reason people practice at this range is because anything beyond this would most likely land you in prison for forcing the situation against a target that posed no threat.
There is no such thing as "legal" range to employ deadly force, within reason of course. It's about ability, opportunity and jeopardy which is subjective. The 21 foot rule is not a rule, but as mentioned earlier, is simply an average distance for practice against an attacker with an edged weapon or a bludgeon. It has absolutely nothing to do with legality or justification. As far as recommended distance in LEO training 30 feet is now more the norm. I can GUARANTEE you that an attacker can cover 21 before an unsuspecting person can draw and fire effectively to the point of incapacitation. I am a LEO and firearms instructor, and my best friend, another officer, is a use of force instructor and heavily into martial arts both armed and empty hand. In our training, we both stress that if you are attacked with a knife, even by an untrained person, you WILL get cut.

If you are holstered and not EXPECTING an attack, 21 feet away, and you're the only thing between freedom and me I can guarantee you 21 feet will seem awfully short. Reaction is on average 2/3 slower than action.

Find a partner to stand behind you with your weapon holstered. Now at his leisure he taps you on the back and starts hauling butt. When he hears your first shot he stops. I'll bet he's either at, or damn near, 21 feet. It sounds simple but try it. And remember, you knew it was coming, and you're assuming a perfect one shot stop.
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Last edited by Dillinger; 05-01-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 04-17-2009, 03:14 AM   #25
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7 yards/21 feet is eight to ten steps for most people and that is truly close in a hostile situation. At a run (even for a fat guy that is seconds) so that to me this is close defense. 10 yards/30 feet is far more reasonable distance to precieve a threat and react. At 5 to 10 feet your going to be lucky to be able to pull any firearm in time before the agressor is on you. I expect many gun fights end up at the 5 to 10 foot distance but the threat was preceived at 30 feet or better and that is when the engagement started.

I'll admit that I carry a compact when the weather is warm but 75% of the time I find a full size pistol isn't that much harder to conseal or carry. I should preferance that by saying my compact has a 3.5" barrel and my full size has a 4.25" barrel so the difference is minimal, the weight difference is minimal. It comes down to being a bit lazy at times and putting a pistol in a pocket instead of a holster.

I'm not a shooting instructor or a bad ass, I'm a regular guy that carries for personal protection and can say with out question if that time comes I'm going to be happy that I carried a little extra.
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Old 05-01-2009, 01:11 AM   #26
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Default Bill Drill is a favorite

It is nice to see shooters using an old favorite, like the Bill Drill! Are there any other exercises or drills that you use to hone accuracy and decrease time?
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Old 05-01-2009, 01:14 PM   #27
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What are the downfalls of carrying a sub-compact ti a full size?

I can hit pretty well with my .40 xdsc. I out perform my friend who has the xd45.
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Old 05-01-2009, 01:56 PM   #28
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I think that may be a case of you out-shooting your friend, not his weapon.

I'm assuming that your friend has at least a 4-inch barrel on is .45, so that would mean he has 1 extra inch of barrel length than your sub-compact. Based on the physics of firearms / bullets / etc.... the .45 will group better at, say, 20 yards than your sub-compact.

Your sub-compact is a great choice for defense. I have been thinking about purchasing a sub-compact XD lately. The full size will always have an advantage over the sub-compact because of the barrel size.

Do you have some sort of mechanical / sand bag rest that you can use? Take your friends .45 out with you next time to the range, and shoot both off a rest at a 20 yard target and see if there is any difference in groupings. Granted, you will be comparing a .40 to a .45, so the results won't be as accurate as they would if you had a .40 full size, but it could still be interesting to post the results in this thread.

I am especially interested if there's a sub-compact out there that can outperform it's fullsize counterpart, because that is info that the general public needs to know.
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Old 05-01-2009, 02:35 PM   #29
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Another Excellent post!! Keep em coming.

I recently attended a pistol training class put on by the same instructors that train our state leo and swat, they trained us at 5 and 7 yards but stressed you will never pick you're battle so its best to practice at varying distances
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Old 05-01-2009, 03:04 PM   #30
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Sarge - Really good information in these training threads. I am enjoying reading them and learning a few things myself.

Something that I think got missed in the battle back and forth over what is the "average" range when a fire fight occurs is that when it occurs you need to have enough gun in the fight.

If you are comfortable with your XD Compact, then carry your Compact. If you are comfortable with a full sized 1911, then carry the 1911.

If you are NOT comfortable with the weapon, it's not going to do you any good at 3 feet or 30 feet.

Now, as to the clothing issue. It's true, I carry more ammo in the winter months than I do in the summer months. I generally carry at least 3+1 mags in winter, because of the clothing issue.

Summer time, with loose fitting clothes and not as much "concealment" available, I trim back to 2+1, or even 1+1 if I am not going anywhere that I feel is problematic.

Now, something to think about - and I am not advocating this as legal ANYWHERE, so check your local laws before doing anything stupid....

HOWEVER:

Backpacks are everywhere now and no one finds it odd to have a pack slung over your shoulder while you are out and about on a hot, sunny, summer day. Add a water bottle and a book to read and you are just like every other college kid or commuter out there.

There is no tell-tale buldge to worry about, there is no worrying about printing, there is no worry about snagging your holster on a booth while grabbing some chow.

The downside is that you can't get quick access to it if the fight is between you and another person. However if there is violence in your area, you should have time to get access to your gear with a little practice and some more practice.

Just a thought for those hot and sunny summer days coming up with shorts and tank tops everywhere.

JD
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