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Old 04-14-2009, 05:55 PM   #1
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Default SGT-MILLER Training Thread #2: Adapting

For my next training thread, I will go over a topic that is not covered enough in my humble opinion.

Today, all firearms makers offer many choices of small sized weapons. More often than not, it's just a cut down version of the full size model (i.e. the Glock lineups). This has created a culture of people trying to adapt a firearm to their lifestyles, versus adapting their lifestyles to the firearm. Unfortunately, this can hinder the amount of protection you offer yourself and others.

Carrying a concealed weapon is a 100% lifestyle change 100% of the time. If you try to purchase a small weapon for the sake of fitting your current lifestyle, you are short changing yourself. I will quote a line from Clint Smith (Thunder Ranch)

"A standard or large sized weapon is big to carry, but it is also big in a fight."

Now, pocket pistols have their place in the world of concealed carry, and something is better than nothing. I urge people not to completely dismiss the idea of carrying a full sized pistol as their defensive weapon. Honestly ask yourself what would you want to have in a fight. Would a small pocket pistol with an effective range of about 10 feet be enough, or would something like a full sized 5 inch 1911, or a 4 inch or above revolver (.357, 44 special, etc...)?

With the advent of many carry holsters and options that can discreetly hide your service sized firearm, it is worth a good look into.

For example, my preferred carry piece is my S&W Sigma .40 caliber auto pistol. This is a double stack pistol with a 4 inch barrel and a capacity of 14 rounds of .40 caliber. Even if I decide not to carry an extra magazine, I have 14 rounds of fight in me before I am dry, and my pistol becomes a stick.

I ask people not to buy into the sales pitches of the gun dealer out there saying that you need a compact Glock, S&W, Taurus, etc... in order to effectively defend yourself. With some easy changes, you can effectively carry a full size piece and never worry if you have enough fight at any given point.

Pocket pistols have their place, and they are an important asset to the world of defense, but do not dismiss the idea of packing a full size around.

Remember, most fights happen at 21 feet. That 21 feet is the same whether you are using a pocket pistol or a full sized pistol. Would you rather be using something that is nearing it's max effective range at 21 feet, of something that is right in it's comfort zone at 21 feet?



God bless, and stay trained, and safe.

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Old 04-15-2009, 04:06 PM   #2
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Remember, most fights happen at 21 feet. That 21 feet is the same whether you are using a pocket pistol or a full sized pistol. Would you rather be using something that is nearing it's max effective range at 21 feet, of something that is right in it's comfort zone at 21 feet?
Not according to the FBI's 2004 data of all officer-related assaults. That report stated that 3-5 feet was the norm for officer involved use of force incidents.

21 feet is a long way away from someone to be interacting...
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Old 04-15-2009, 05:31 PM   #3
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That may be true in regards to LEOs, but for the general populace, the average engagement is around 21 feet or so, which is 7 yards (which is actually a pretty short distance).

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:15 AM   #4
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That may be true in regards to LEOs, but for the general populace, the average engagement is around 21 feet or so, which is 7 yards (which is actually a pretty short distance).
Actually he's right the data is for all situations LEO or not, its roughly 80% of all gun fights happen at 5 feet. This includes general populace. 21 feet is on the cusp of beyond legal engagement range. I'm not an instructor nor a LEO but this is what I have been taught.

I think cops are taught to keep the BG beyond 21 feet. Though that is not how close he will be when he attacks.

I was going to ask some questions, but I'm not sure. Since the opinion was based on false info. Also 21 feet is 7 yards. Thats easily hit with any subcompact. So I'm not sure about carrying a full service pistol. Don't LEO use SC for back up?
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:23 AM   #5
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Sounds right, I've always heard that most gun fights are at a distance of 8 - 10 feet and your first few moves should be to move back and to your left or right while drawing your weapon. Being able to move, draw and fire is what will make the difference between you on the ground or the attacker. It is what I practice at the range.

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:33 AM   #6
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I invite you to re-read my initial post. I stated in my original post that pocket pistols have their place in the world of defensive carry, but that doesn't mean to totally dismiss the idea of carrying a full size weapon.

My logic behind this is largely taken from Clint Smith. He is with Thunder Ranch and has alot of credibility in the defensive training circles.

Training at 7 yards (21 feet) is the standard with dealing with concealed carry qualification courses, military CQC courses (which I instruct), and some LEO drills. 7 yards is the average of pistol engagements. In case you don't know 7 yards is about the length of an average full size truck(depends on the model). That is pretty close. Any pistol made on the market will work at 7 yards, but why limit yourself to something that will not work much farther than 7 yards.

Pistol engagements can range from point blank range, to 25 yards and beyond. It all depends on the circumstances of the fight.

Why limit yourself on the performance of your firearm when you don't have to?

I am just trying to help out members on this forum. If you don't think I am providing the right kind of help, feel free to research someone like Clint Smith, or some of the other great instructors at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Valhalla (I think that's the name), Gunsafe, or any other reputable defense academy out there.

Stay safe, and informed.

P.S. At a distance of 8-10 feet or less, you will not get your firearm to "clear leather" before the BG is on top of you. At that close distance (which sometimes can be only about arms length or slightly more) you need to worry more about hand-to-hand techniques, and defensive drills for gaining some distance from your attacker before you even think about drawing your weapon.

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:40 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by SGT-MILLER View Post
I invite you to re-read my initial post. I stated in my original post that pocket pistols have their place in the world of defensive carry, but that doesn't mean to totally dismiss the idea of carrying a full size weapon.

My logic behind this is largely taken from Clint Smith. He is with Thunder Ranch and has alot of credibility in the defensive training circles.

Training at 7 yards (21 feet) is the standard with dealing with concealed carry qualification courses, military CQC courses (which I instruct), and some LEO drills. 7 yards is the average of pistol engagements. In case you don't know 7 yards is about the length of an average full size truck(depends on the model). That is pretty close. Any pistol made on the market will work at 7 yards, but why limit yourself to something that will not work much farther than 7 yards.

Pistol engagements can range from point blank range, to 25 yards and beyond. It all depends on the circumstances of the fight.

Why limit yourself on the performance of your firearm when you don't have to?

I am just trying to help out members on this forum. If you don't think I am providing the right kind of help, feel free to research someone like Clint Smith, or some of the other great instructors at Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Valhalla (I think that's the name), Gunsafe, or any other reputable defense academy out there.

Stay safe, and informed.

P.S. At a distance of 8-10 feet or less, you will not get your firearm to "clear leather" before the BG is on top of you. At that distance (which is about arms length or slightly more) you need to worry more about hand-to-hand techniques, and defensive drills for gaining some distance from your attacker before you even think about drawing your weapon.
7 yards is not the average engagement, its the average LEGAL range for engagement, as this is the distance a person with a knife can cross that distance and stab you. What are you a SGT of exactly? I know they teach this to LEOs. The reason people practice at this range is because anything beyond this would most likely land you in prison for forcing the situation against a target that posed no threat.

I'm going to attempt to find the DATA, but as screwed up as it is. I think I might have got this info from Thunder Ranch.

Is Clint the one with the wife who has a bee hive hair style?

EDIT: No wait the 80% is for combat at night. 80% of gun battles occur at night. However the 50% of gun fights are around 5 feet. As per FBI data. 71% around 10 feet.

Heres the data: http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS-%20What%20We%20Didn%27t%20Know%20Hurt%20Us.pdf

I hate to use police deaths as the resource but I think the other info was during an instruction.

The golden rule of skill is proximity removes skill. So I'm not sure about a full size pistol. It might be better off using something more concealable. Especially since they are easier to jam/disarm.

Which you can do by cover the slide and locking it down with the palm of the hand. While using your own pistol.

At these ranges you should add martial arts to your gun skills. At the very least learn the pull and twist engagement.
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:50 AM   #8
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I've never practiced with a dummy gun and a real attacker. Guess that better become part of the routine!! Thanks SGT!!

Damn, it was tough enough to just back-up, move right, draw and fire without falling on my ass!!

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:51 AM   #9
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Show me what the legal ranges are.

In my house there are areas where the engagement would be about 10 yards at a minimum.

Are you saying that it would be illegal to engage someone in my home unless they get a little closer?

What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

Read halfway down the article. There isn't much on it, but there is a statement that the FBI study did put the distance at around ten feet, but the PMA study had it around twenty feet (which would be around 7 yards).

The FBI study was from their compilation of the gunfight resulting in killed FBI agents. This is not an accurate way to gauge all gunfight distances in general.

I'll try to look up more stuff if you would like.

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Old 04-16-2009, 12:58 AM   #10
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Show me what the legal ranges are.

In my house there are areas where the engagement would be about 10 yards at a minimum.

Are you saying that it would be illegal to engage someone in my home unless they get a little closer?

What Really Happens In A Gunfight?

Read halfway down the article. There isn't much on it, but there is a statement that the FBI study did put the distance at around ten feet, but the PMA study had it around twenty feet (which would be around 7 yards).

The FBI study was from their compilation of the gunfight resulting in killed FBI agents. This is not an accurate way to gauge all gunfight distances in general.

I'll try to look up more stuff if you would like.
Any range in your house is acceptable, however most houses don't allow for long ranges anyway.

What page? Also the FBI studies Law Enforcement Officers, which means all. Also the NYPD one includes everyone and not just LEOs.
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