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Old 06-27-2013, 11:11 PM   #41
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Defensive shooting - or 'combat shooting' in the mall ninja jargon - is advanced technique.

Aside: Acting in one's defense is a form of 'combat' in that adversaries are engaged in potentially lethal force. However, the term 'combat' commonly applies to participants in active warfare, where the goal is to damage as many of the enemy as possible while incurring the least amount of losses. In 'combat', one is actively seeking the enemy to damage them. 'Defensive shooting' is the action of defending one's self, when unlawfully attacked by an antagonist.

Since this discussion revolves around firearms, and mostly handguns, I will continue with that specific.

Before one can properly study the concept, techniques and subtleties of defensive shooting, one must gain proficiency in the operation of whatever weapon one uses in the defensive role. In other words, one must learn how to operate a handgun. How it functions, the manual of arms, clearing stoppages, and how to deliver rounds on a specific target. Much like one must first learn and be proficient in arithmetic prior to learning algebra or calculus.

Bullseye shooting is perhaps the finest method to learn the elemental knowledge of shooting a handgun. The basis of all handgun success is the ability to deliver rounds - 'hits' if preferred - on a specific target. Nothing teaches that like bullseye.

The late Jeff Cooper once opined any handgunner should be competent enough to put all shots into a six inch bullseye at twenty-five yards PRIOR to beginning 'defensive' shooting.

Yes, when under pressure, the ability to hold a group deteriorates. However, which shooter's group will be bigger under pressure: The one who can hold a two inch group at a given distance, or the one who can hold a ten inch group at the same distance? Who will have the greater confidence and be less likely to panic under aggression?

And just what is so 'un-tactical' about being able to deliver a shot within an inch of the desired point of impact?

Competence in any field is achieved by hard work, self-discipline and attention to detail. You're all big kids, make up your own minds.
I was trained and competing in "combat shooting" long before there were mall ninjas. In fact, there were very few indoor malls at that time. Isn't it funny how things change over the years? In another 40 years it may be back to combat shooting. Whatever you call it doesn't really matter. It all amounts to the same thing. You are preparing in case you ever have to defend yourself against somebody that is trying to do you harm. You are preparing for the time when you may be literally fighting for your life, and if that isn't combat, I don't know what is.

Now, about the ability to deliver a shot within an inch of the desired point of impact. Realistically you probably won't be able to do it in a true combat situation. Ideally, even if you could get that first shot where you want it it is anatomically counterproductive to place follow-up shots in the same place. With all the variables in build, fat content vs. musculature, bone density, hydration, and the ballistic differences in ammo and firearms, you are better served to have a wider group.
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:34 PM   #42
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The words we use to describe a situation can mean going to prison or going home. What will sound better to the jury in the end.

I can shoot 3" groups all day long till I try speeding up. Get proficient with one gun and carry it. Just because I have more than one doesn't mean I have to carry them all.

Practice often. Vary your technique. I practice not using my sights with my carry gun, not looking for moa, just need m.o.m. (minute of man).

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Old 06-29-2013, 03:31 PM   #43
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There is no way to be 100% prepared for the 'final option', those who are responsible do the best they can to be 'ready'. Get as much practice/training as you can afford (time and money wise). The MOST important factor in 'winning' is mind set, and this something which can't to 'thought' in the classroom (there is no substitute for actual experience, but few of us have had the misfortune to get this experience). You should be confident but not arrogant. I have found that many of my students develop this self confidence through training and practice.
I might add to the above. When I teach the basic 'Armed self defense' classes I teach point shooting only. This is the 'base' you begin with. Up close and personal is what most defense shooting involve! Sighted 'marksmanship' is the next step. You would be surprised how quickly the first time shooters pick this up and how much more confident they are when they realize they can hit their target this way.
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Old 07-02-2013, 04:02 PM   #44
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I was trained and competing in "combat shooting" long before there were mall ninjas.
Doc, the same attitude person was once known as a 'drug store cowboy'. That was prior to wide spread western knowledge of ninjas and what we know as malls. They were essentially the same; a smattering of knowledge - primarily derived from movies, television shows or radio programs if one looks back far enough - and a repertoire of unverifiable stories all designed to bolster the teller's ego.

Like you implied, the terms change from time to time.

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It all amounts to the same thing. You are preparing in case you ever have to defend yourself against somebody that is trying to do you harm.
Except for the collateral damage part.

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... fighting for your life, and if that isn't combat, I don't know what is.
Arguably defense is a form of combat in the broadest sense, yes. But the connotations are different.

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Now, about the ability to deliver a shot within an inch of the desired point of impact. Realistically you probably won't be able to do it in a true combat situation.
You won't if you never practice for it. You won't if you never try.

Okay, I'll buy the notion that one's skills deteriorate in such a high stress situation. Therefore, a skilled shooter's ability to hold a - just for illustrative purposes - two inch group at seven yards will deteriorate by a factor of four (a number I picked from the air again in illustration) and so will be holding eight inch groups at seven yards.

Compare that to the 'area effect' or 'spray and hope' shooter who can reliably hold a six inch group at seven yards. His ability also deteriorates by the same factor of four and is now shooting two foot groups at seven yards.

The reality is a mediocre shooter will not suddenly get better under stress. A collected, controlled mind shooter may not deteriorate (at least, not as much) but a mediocre shooter is probably not possessed of a collected, controlled mind.

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Ideally, even if you could get that first shot where you want it it is anatomically counterproductive to place follow-up shots in the same place.
I agree; spreading out the shock and damage is a more certain way of stopping a threat (at least that's what the trauma doctors seem to think.) By placing shots where one wants the shots to go, one is MORE likely to effectively place shots in various important locales, rather than random hits which may be quite closely positioned, along with several complete misses.
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:05 PM   #45
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Doc, the same attitude person was once known as a 'drug store cowboy'. That was prior to wide spread western knowledge of ninjas and what we know as malls. They were essentially the same; a smattering of knowledge - primarily derived from movies, television shows or radio programs if one looks back far enough - and a repertoire of unverifiable stories all designed to bolster the teller's ego.

Like you implied, the terms change from time to time.

Except for the collateral damage part.

Arguably defense is a form of combat in the broadest sense, yes. But the connotations are different.

You won't if you never practice for it. You won't if you never try.

Okay, I'll buy the notion that one's skills deteriorate in such a high stress situation. Therefore, a skilled shooter's ability to hold a - just for illustrative purposes - two inch group at seven yards will deteriorate by a factor of four (a number I picked from the air again in illustration) and so will be holding eight inch groups at seven yards.

Compare that to the 'area effect' or 'spray and hope' shooter who can reliably hold a six inch group at seven yards. His ability also deteriorates by the same factor of four and is now shooting two foot groups at seven yards.

The reality is a mediocre shooter will not suddenly get better under stress. A collected, controlled mind shooter may not deteriorate (at least, not as much) but a mediocre shooter is probably not possessed of a collected, controlled mind.

I agree; spreading out the shock and damage is a more certain way of stopping a threat (at least that's what the trauma doctors seem to think.) By placing shots where one wants the shots to go, one is MORE likely to effectively place shots in various important locales, rather than random hits which may be quite closely positioned, along with several complete misses.
You ever heard of a guy named Massad Ayoob? You ever read his book called Combat Shooting? Drug store cowboy my azz.
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Old 07-08-2013, 05:12 AM   #46
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Shooting for defense at 30 feet? Farther? 20 feet is more than likely twice the distance of most self defense shootings.

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Old 07-08-2013, 04:09 PM   #47
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You ever heard of a guy named Massad Ayoob? You ever read his book called Combat Shooting? Drug store cowboy my azz.
Good book. Lots of good information. However the title is absolutely targeting a certain group of individuals known to some as drug store cowboys and others as mall ninjas. Its just marketing.
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Old 07-25-2013, 03:23 PM   #48
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yeah, and if 4 guys spill out of a car, with tire irons, from 10 ft away from you on the sidewalk, it'd be highly advisable for you to run, until you put some sort of obstacle between you and them, and THEN shoot the first 1-2, and see if the others insist on being shot, too.

the fact is that most shots in pistol combat entirely miss the man at 20 ft or less, and that most hits are not to vital areas (even at ranges of 10ft and less). . So dont kid yourself that you are going to put all your rds in the center of mass. Doing so just means that you are shooting too slowly. Work at your rpaidfiring, at 10 ft of distance, until you group about 10", when firing as fast as you can trigger shots, because that's probably the way that you will fire when you are under fire.

You'd better also learn to use cover, fire with either hand, use a flashlight, fire from awkward positions, and to hit movers, while you are moving. etc. Much of this is best learned with an Airsoft gun, guys. Geo Z was flat on his back, when he shot a man who was laying on Geo, as they struggled. Have you thought of how you'd do that? or how you'd prevent having to do that (ie, have gun in pocket, hand on it, when at risk, pull it out swiftly and let attacker see it, in time to stop and go away).

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Old 07-25-2013, 08:35 PM   #49
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Very good post, bildee. Very good. That touch of reality in the second paragraph nails it, especially with so many of the short barreled concealable firearms out there. The sad part is that most people aren't going to believe it.

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Old 07-26-2013, 01:11 PM   #50
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yeah, and if 4 guys spill out of a car, with tire irons, from 10 ft away from you on the sidewalk, it'd be highly advisable for you to run, until you put some sort of obstacle between you and them, and THEN shoot the first 1-2, and see if the others insist on being shot, too.

the fact is that most shots in pistol combat entirely miss the man at 20 ft or less, and that most hits are not to vital areas (even at ranges of 10ft and less). . So dont kid yourself that you are going to put all your rds in the center of mass. Doing so just means that you are shooting too slowly. Work at your rpaidfiring, at 10 ft of distance, until you group about 10", when firing as fast as you can trigger shots, because that's probably the way that you will fire when you are under fire.

You'd better also learn to use cover, fire with either hand, use a flashlight, fire from awkward positions, and to hit movers, while you are moving. etc. Much of this is best learned with an Airsoft gun, guys. Geo Z was flat on his back, when he shot a man who was laying on Geo, as they struggled. Have you thought of how you'd do that? or how you'd prevent having to do that (ie, have gun in pocket, hand on it, when at risk, pull it out swiftly and let attacker see it, in time to stop and go away).
You make the point I have been preaching for years. 'Close quarters drills' are missing from MANY lesson plans and qual courses even in LE.
My basic 'Armed Self Defense ' class teaches nothing but close quarters shooting!
One hand for shooting, one hand to 'fend' off the attacker!
AND realistic practice is essential to being 'ready' to use a firearm for self defense.
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