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Old 08-16-2008, 09:26 PM   #21
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If you'd like to see all of those problems demonstrated, follow me to the range after a few weeks off! Great gouge. Remember, practice does NOT make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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Old 08-28-2008, 06:05 AM   #22
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Gentlemen-
Our NRA instructor may have chosen to walk away from this fight, demonstrating an understanding of sound tactics but I'm still young and and eager to mix it up, so here goes.
First of all, the sight pictures in post #1 were correct dead-on sight pics ; not 6 o'clock hold. Both types are correct, though. Many target shooters adjust their sights for a 6 o'clock hold so that they can put black sights on a white target instead of on a black bull's eye. If your gun has fixed sights and shoots high at a given distance, you must use a 6 o'clock hold.
I prefer a dead-on sight picture. It is the best choice for defensive shooting because there is no bull's eye to get under .
The miss charts are fine as long as you read them as possible explanations and don't assume they apply to every shooter.
Something smells about Tom having heard that DEA man was a certified NRA instructor . In fact it smells like , well, bull---'s eye -or something.
Sorry, but I'm not wowed by instructor credentials. I've trained under several instructors and they run the gamut from lousy shots to incompetent, to bullying former DIs on up to excellent.
Anyone who teaches Federal Government doctrine is suspect in my book because everything from the safety test to the new " ICE Course " is wrong in the real world. I won't give many specifics on the Internet because I don't wish to train criminals but here are a few examples of Federal ( GSA, Homeland Security ) idiocy :
At the end of a shift, the guards must unload and turn in their semi-autos, which means they must manipulate them and that increases the chance of an accident. The same applies when they must be issued the gun at the start of a shift and load it .
When handing over the open gun at the end of the shift, the guards are required to hand it over with the muzzle pointed at the guard's chest !
Tap-Rack-Bang is replaced with the politically correct Tap-Rack-Reassess, a rule James Yeager savages in his videos .
The first order given on the safety test is " Pick up the weapon ". The guard is expected to remove the mag and open the action of the gun without being asked because ( according to the Feds ) " You always check a gun to make sure it is empty immediately when you pick it up ". The guard flunks if he fails to announce out loud, " The weapon is safe and clear ".

I told off an instructor once by explaining that my personal gun is always loaded and I need not check it every time I pick it up . He guffawed. I did my best Jeff Cooper immitation and said " All guns are always loaded. Always! "
All this government-mandated racking and loading knocks bullets back into cases. Someday, you may read about a gun exploding when a guard fires it, because of that. And, yes, I've told my chain of command.
That DEA agent ( Yes, contrary to Tom's post, he was a DEA agent-just read his lawsuit filing on www. thesmokinggun.com ) was not alone. Recently, a federal agent was stopped by guards in a lobby and asked if she was armed. Told to wait, she removed her gun from her purse, placed it under her arm , and proceeded into the building . If a guard had done that, he'd have been banned from working all federal contracts. No action was taken against the federal agent , though.
The gov't switch from the venerable .38 to the stylish Glock has probably resulted in more ADs . The .38 was adequate for security work and far better suited to constant unloading and reloading . Glocks are safe but revolvers are safer .
FPS ( Federal Protective Service ) once published a guide for federal employees' safety that said not to keep a gun for home defense ...
We used to shoot at B-27 Silouettes to qualify with 60 rounds . you needed a 210 out of a possible score of 300. Anything in the 8-ring or better was 5 points. The kill zone was the size of a legal size piece of paper and then some . You even got one point for every wild head shot . It was a timed PPC shoot and guards failed because GSA officials miscounted scores and made them nervous any way they could .
The reason guards shoot badly, dear Tom, is that the government and private instructors and range officers yell at them and teach them to flinch .
No, I don't care to attend any more gov't training classes for free, but I'll accept a chance for a friendly bull's-eye duel with stock 1911s and NRA rules . So far, none of my instructors has been interested...
Rentacop

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Old 08-30-2008, 03:22 AM   #23
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( I tried to post on this before but the post never showed up )

G21 is right. The pics in the starting post show a proper dead-on sight picture. The error charts are simply guides and don't purport to diagnose any particular person's errors .
The DEA man in question was a regular DEA agent, which can be verified by reading his lawsuit papers at www.thesmokinggun.com . The supposed rumor that he was an NRA certified instructor is not credible .

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Old 09-03-2008, 03:30 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G21.45 View Post
No, Scott, that's not what it means. First, you need to learn how to improve your grip, and discover how to control the pistol's backstrap better, BEFORE you begin to concentrate on watching that front sight.

(Trust me! I've been doing this for a long time.)
And for the life of me, it seems like I only grasp that fact for the first 10 and last 10 rounds of a session!
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Old 11-26-2008, 10:58 PM   #25
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and here I am trying to figure out whats the 'right' way to aim...

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Old 11-27-2008, 10:34 PM   #26
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Interesting comments on this thread. It's obvious that the people posting their views are educated, and have done research to form their own respective opinions.

I do think any new people to the world of firearms will be utterly confused by this thread.

The best concept in the world of shooting is K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple, Stupid (Sir, Sweetie, Silly, etc......)

The initial posts with the pictures of the sight picture will work fine for the novice shooter. There's no need to mull over the fine details.

Instructors are notorius for correcting other instructors on the smallest details in order to make themselves feel smarter (I am also an Instuctor, so I have been guilty of it also).

Get to the range and practice. Bottom line is put your rounds "between the shirt pockets".

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Old 11-29-2008, 06:52 PM   #27
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Good post Rentacop. I am a contract guard with DHS/FPS here in Ca. and you are absolutely correct in your assessment. Every federally trained firearms instructor that I have encountered leave a lot to be desired.
We recently swithched from Ruger GP100's loaded with .38 110gr SJHP ammo to glock 19's loaded with Winchester 124gr Ranger SXT ammo. I tend to prefer the Glocks (semi-auto vs. revolver and 30 rds. vs. 18 rds.) and the new course of fire (a more aggressive and offensive combat course).
Just to emphasize your point about the federal firearms instructors. At the last I.C.E. requalification shoot, 12 out of 14 agents failed the first attempt. During my requal using the same course of fire, I shot a 231 out of 250. The course requires that you score a minimum of 200 to qualify.

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Old 12-07-2008, 02:24 PM   #28
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chopkick-
231 is a very good score on the ICE course . In case I didn't make myself clear about the revolver being replaced by the Glock, I agree with you that the Glock is a better gun . I only question its use by people who are required to load and unload every day and hand guns back and forth . Revolvers are safer and guards in federal buildings are extremely unlikely to need to use their guns or to need more than 6 rounds .
If you want to train realistically, put up a paper plate at 7 yards. Load 6 rounds, draw and empty the gun into the plate as fast as you can without missing. ( No fancy choreographed course of fire. Try the same thing in other positions .

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Old 12-07-2008, 02:54 PM   #29
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Earlier on, a request was made for a pic of winged (protected) military sights. These are on an AR-15 whose iron sights are co-witnessed with an EO Tech, with the EOT turned off.

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Old 12-07-2008, 04:18 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
chopkick-
231 is a very good score on the ICE course . In case I didn't make myself clear about the revolver being replaced by the Glock, I agree with you that the Glock is a better gun . I only question its use by people who are required to load and unload every day and hand guns back and forth . Revolvers are safer and guards in federal buildings are extremely unlikely to need to use their guns or to need more than 6 rounds .
If you want to train realistically, put up a paper plate at 7 yards. Load 6 rounds, draw and empty the gun into the plate as fast as you can without missing. ( No fancy choreographed course of fire. Try the same thing in other positions .
Actually out here in Ca. we are all issued our own weapons and we wear them to and from our posts.
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Considering the fact that the victim is the first one at the scene of a violent crime, I believe all law abiding citizens should be armed.

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