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Old 03-01-2010, 02:52 AM   #11
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Thanks for the tips Rentacop. We have a mandatory shot coming up next month. I will think it over and see what I can come up with. Bigguns.

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Old 03-01-2010, 03:24 PM   #12
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This brings up an situation in a local Sheriff's Office next to mine. A reserve recruit was on the fire line doing some training with other recruits. As he drew his 1911 he lost control of it and it started to fall to the ground. He attempted to stop it from hitting the ground. As he did this it went bang and hit in the gut, travestied his gut and logged in his right buttock. Fortunately it missed all vital areas and he lived. And thank god it did not his a fellow recruit. It took only a few milliseconds for this to go down. The instructor could not stop it. This is how stuff happens.

I know LEO's that I work with that are not gun people. They do not like guns, they do not train as they should and they are frankly afraid of guns. I know at lest on that Carry's his gun to and from work with just the mag in and no round in the chamber. I know others that only clean their guns when they are mandated to do so. What do you do with these people, you can't fire them and they will not change even if you kick their asses?


Bigguns did you just hear this or read this? 1911's have a grip safety that prevents the weapon from firing unless it is depressed. Did the officer grab the weapon and shoot himself as I don't see how it fired by just dropping it. If this was a media report they are notorious for being inaccurate.

I agree on the new "breed" of officer. Being a cop used to be a calling and wearing a badge was a way of life not a job and that seems to have fallen by the side. I blame this on the "touchy feely" mentality of the baby boomer generation and the "make love not war" crap of the 60-70's. Bad people do bad things to good people and only those willing to step in and inflect trauma and pain on those BG's will protect the public and stop this pattern not giving them more love and understanding. Unfortunately I'm a dinosaur.
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:21 AM   #13
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Default Discharge from a droped 1911?

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Bigguns did you just hear this or read this? 1911's have a grip safety that prevents the weapon from firing unless it is depressed. Did the officer grab the weapon and shoot himself as I don't see how it fired by just dropping it. If this was a media report they are notorious for being inaccurate.

I agree on the new "breed" of officer. Being a cop used to be a calling and wearing a badge was a way of life not a job and that seems to have fallen by the side. I blame this on the "touchy feely" mentality of the baby boomer generation and the "make love not war" crap of the 60-70's. Bad people do bad things to good people and only those willing to step in and inflect trauma and pain on those BG's will protect the public and stop this pattern not giving them more love and understanding. Unfortunately I'm a dinosaur.
Gotta side with Dzscubie on this one. Been toting 1911 for 20 years now and never seen or heard of a discharge from being droped? Far more likely this "new breed" recruite fumbled his weapon and shot himself but of course when dealing with the "new breed" we must remember that nothing is ever there fault! The gun just went off, I swear! BS! I'd like to see LEO trainers follow the Infantry's lead and drop the term "Accidental Discharge" from the vocabulary. There are only two ways to dischage a gun, Intentionaly or Negligently. Start substituting "Accidental with Negligent" and I guarantee these incidents will decline.
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Old 03-02-2010, 12:34 PM   #14
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I have assisted in the investigation of two such "dropped weapon" ND's. One was a S&W 66 that fell out of the holster and went off. The officer apparently hooked the butt with his own elbow and forced it forward and out (holster technology has come a long way in 25 years since). No marks on hammer spur. Conclusion? He must have pulled the trigger when grabbing for it as it fell. The second was a Beretta 92 that the officer hung by the trigger guard from the coat hook in the john while leaving a duece. The pistol pulled the screws out of the door and the pistol fell. Once againthe officer attempted to catch it and must have pulled the trigger while catching it. Fortunately, no one was physically injured in either event. Their pride was severly damaged however.

As for getting struck by ricochets, I am larger than most people so the probability is higher for me to catch a bullet. In nearly every case I was standing directly behind the shooter and caught a bullet or a fragment of a bullet that bounced back. In every case the distance to the target was immediately altered to prevent future occurances.

Body armor is mandatory for all personnel on our ranges in addition to eye and ear protection. Shooters, Safety Officers, Range Master, everyone. Stuff happens

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Old 03-02-2010, 03:25 PM   #15
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Body armor is mandatory for all personnel on our ranges in addition to eye and ear protection. Shooters, Safety Officers, Range Master, everyone. Stuff happens

Same here Robo, we require our officers to qualify with their body armor even if they don't wear it on duty (voluntary wear policy). All of our Instructors are issued a red Tactical vest for their body armor with Firearms Instructor markings to identify them on the line and protect them from officers in condition “brown” (head up their A**). We use metal reactive targets during our tactical exercises and splash back is common.
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:35 PM   #16
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DZscubie, is that vest OK'd for deer hunting too?

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... It's not realistic to think cops have the time to train this way but the very simple solution would be for departments to allow 4 yrs "Infantry or MP" service to substitute for the 4 yr degree requirement.
As a non-LEO, that sounds like an interesting idea to increase officer safety. It also sounds like there could be some confusion regarding the differences in how an MP is legally allowed to treat a soldier versus how a LEO is legally allowed to handle a regular civilian citizen. Do MP's receive the level of training in civilian law & such that most LEO's for civilian populations do? Example, aren't there a few differences in the 4th amendment protections afforded a deployed soldier versus those afforded a citizen walking their dog & is this explained/enforced in the MP training?

I'm not a soldier & would prefer LEO's trained specifically to work with civilians. No offense Tackleberry, just my opinion. It certainly would be nice if we could discourage LEO applicants with gun safety issues.
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Old 03-02-2010, 11:57 PM   #17
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DZscubie, is that vest OK'd for deer hunting too?


.

Orangello,

Only if the deer shoot back
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Old 03-03-2010, 12:31 AM   #18
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Before I begin, let me say hello to everyone. I am new to this forum, and very happy to be here. Let me give a little background about myself. I am well into my twenty eighth year on a large Metro Police Department in Texas.

I am currently in Investigations with certifications in Defensive Tactics, Firearms Instructor and tactics, Crime Prevention Specialist to name a few. So here goes, Police Departments have budgets that have been cut to quick. It seems that many cities believe that having a sports team, or museum is more important than public safety.

It seems funny that most of the rules and regulations are designed to prevent civil litagation. It would seem to me that they would spend more on training, thus reduce civil liability, but what do I know.

Firearms accidents have no excuse! Contrary to popular belief, car accidents kill more cops than shootings, or any other hazards. Shootings are next, the ones where the bad guys shoot the cops, and self inflicted deaths are down the list. Whenever you get careless, they will bite you every time.

It has been stated before, there are cops that are awful, and some that are better. Which can be said of many of us. Safety is safety, and is not the property of any one profession.

Regarding the comment that you would rather get your training from somebody other than the cops, it is your right to get training from whomever you wish. It just sounds like you have a beef with your local law enforcement. While your displeasure with your Sheriff may be valid, anecdotal statements really have no place in discussions that others might read to obtain information.

The words expressed here are important enough that we don't let our own bias to get in the way of dialog. Just my opinion, and my opinion and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee at MacDonald's.

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Old 03-03-2010, 04:02 AM   #19
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Default My point exactly

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I have assisted in the investigation of two such "dropped weapon" ND's. One was a S&W 66 that fell out of the holster and went off. The officer apparently hooked the butt with his own elbow and forced it forward and out (holster technology has come a long way in 25 years since). No marks on hammer spur. Conclusion? He must have pulled the trigger when grabbing for it as it fell. The second was a Beretta 92 that the officer hung by the trigger guard from the coat hook in the john while leaving a duece. The pistol pulled the screws out of the door and the pistol fell. Once againthe officer attempted to catch it and must have pulled the trigger while catching it. Fortunately, no one was physically injured in either event. Their pride was severly damaged however.

As for getting struck by ricochets, I am larger than most people so the probability is higher for me to catch a bullet. In nearly every case I was standing directly behind the shooter and caught a bullet or a fragment of a bullet that bounced back. In every case the distance to the target was immediately altered to prevent future occurances.

Body armor is mandatory for all personnel on our ranges in addition to eye and ear protection. Shooters, Safety Officers, Range Master, everyone. Stuff happens
Wow, priceless Love the one about the Beretta and the coat hook! I'm not LE, just a simple former Infantry Sergeant but been carrying for 12 years so I relate to that vexing problem of storing your side arm while dropping a duce in a public RR, usally at work were letting your belt, holster, and gun rest on floor in view of your co-workers is not good.
My solution was to ditch my collection of expensive leather holsters and go to using the velcro belly band strapped around my hips. Works great, certainly beter that the coat hook
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:02 PM   #20
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While your displeasure with your Sheriff may be valid, anecdotal statements really have no place in discussions that others might read to obtain information.

The words expressed here are important enough that we don't let our own bias to get in the way of dialog. Just my opinion, and my opinion and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee at MacDonald's.
Really? I don't consider the postings on internet forums to have the validity of reviewed professional research projects limited to statistically validated research only; i try to consider what is posted on internet forums as a bit less objective by its very nature. I have always considered the bias inherent in the posting of personal & semi-anonymous opinions and points of view to be another valuable/interesting part of that information or statement posted. If a LEO or a person in an industry that primarily serves LEO's posts something, i view that with the poster's career in mind, just as i would if a anti-gun activist posted something or if a medical doctor posted something.

I think the $1.50 size coffee at MickeyD's is now referred to commonly as a "shot".
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