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-   -   Police Training Gunshot Fatalities Report (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f55/police-training-gunshot-fatalities-report-3419/)

DoubleAction 02-23-2008 04:28 PM

Police Training Gunshot Fatalities Report
 
Many, if not all, of these deaths occurred from the improper handling of firearms.
I couldn't help but notice it started out with one in 1913, with the next one occurring in 1939. The one after 1939, occurred in 1971 and went crazy after that. I also noticed how we went over 30 years, from 1939 to 1971 without a reported Gunshot Fatality.
Many might say this is because Officers switched from Revolvers to Semi-Autos. Not entirely so; In my area, a Deputy with the Clayton County Sheriff's Office killed another during a training exercise by loading live ammunition in his revolver instead of blanks in 1985. This same Deputy went on to become the Sheriff Department's Chief Deputy of the county. You will also find incidents of other fatalities from the use of revolvers in this report.
These are the fatalities; I have not looked up the injury or casualty rate.

I only bring this up to bring attention to my own area where the Sheriff does not believe in the right of licensed firearm holders to carry firearms, without the proper training. If being trained by law enforcement is considered "Proper Training", I'll take my chances with the training I received in the military and thereafter.


This is in PDF :Click on "Training Fatalities Gunshot" on the left side of opening page.

http://www.ntoa.org/pdfs/2007TrainingDeathsReport.pdf

scoutman 02-23-2008 09:32 PM

Some of the finest users of firearms I have ever known have been members of the LE community. Some of the worst I've known were LE too. This video has been around for a while, but I still thinks it's worth watching


hillbilly68 02-23-2008 11:01 PM

That DEA clip is an oldie but a goodie. "Only one professional enough to handle this weapon" BANG. :D :D :D CLassic. What a moron. And I heard that he filed a grievance and a claim against the agency because his fellow officers were circulating this video of him and it caused him undue stress. What an idiot.

Back to the original point, concur that LE is just like any other job in that there are professionals who are experts at their craft, and there are ones that have a job just because there is a need for a warm body to fill a slot. There are plenty of Soldiers who can't shoot for ****, plenty of LEOs who can't either. Have seen/ read accounts of multiple magazines being dumped and no hits. Not to "Monday morning quarterback" by any means, a guy in a fight has his hands full, he is the "man in the ring"(TR). But when you look at it from an after action standpoint, there is a gap in the training or the standards are not high enough/ not enforced. Not sure if that is the case for LE community.
My 2c.
regards

robocop10mm 02-25-2008 01:50 PM

Training Fatalities
 
I have been a cop for 24 years. In that short time I have seen a massive shift in the people becoming officers. When I was a rookie, people got into LE partially because they were "gun people". They were hunters, shooters, reloaders and all around outdoorsmen. I spent 8 years as a training instructor and saw about 50% of the basic recruits that had never even handled a handgun. Teaching basic gun safety was a big chunk of the curriculum. Not enough common sense to understand which end the bullet comes out of. Fear, trepidation and the inability to hit the target, much less clear a malfunction with out repeated instruction.
Common sense is the missing link, IMHO. It seems to be in short supply in our society. People cannot "figure it out". They have to have a step by step detailed manual with cool pictures and power point presentation and then they still cannot remember to tap and rack.
Guns pointed everywhere but at the target. Range officers forced to qualify 25 people at once with no additional eyes on the shooters. Budget cuts that keep staff at a minimum and trigger time to the bare (State required) minimums each year.
Body armor is now mandatory for shooters and RO's. I have personally been hit 13 times by ricochets. 12 stopped by the armor. One at an IPSC match that just broke the skin.

Duck 02-25-2008 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robocop10mm (Post 17332)
Body armor is now mandatory for shooters and RO's. I have personally been hit 13 times by ricochets. 12 stopped by the armor. One at an IPSC match that just broke the skin.

Sounds to me like you need to find a new place to stand. :D

SimonTuffGuy 02-26-2008 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duck (Post 17385)
Sounds to me like you need to find a new place to stand. :D

Or find better shooters. ;)

I've thought about trying to become a(n) LEO... But I'm not sure I'd make it.

Rentacop 02-28-2010 07:57 AM

Robo :
Hit by ricochets on the range ? How did that happen ? Please elaborate.

Here's a link to an article about a cop who accidentally left one in the chamber of his Glock----when he unloaded it in his patrol car----and had it presumably pointed at himself----and accidentally pulled the trigger. He was killed.

The article makes it sound like an understandable lapse.

Funeral for Atlantic City police officer set for Wednesday; link to Kevin Wilkins' obituary - pressofAtlanticCity.com : Today's Top Headlines

Bigguns911 02-28-2010 03:05 PM

This brings up an situation in a local Sheriff's Office next to mine. A reserve recruit was on the fire line doing some training with other recruits. As he drew his 1911 he lost control of it and it started to fall to the ground. He attempted to stop it from hitting the ground. As he did this it went bang and hit in the gut, travestied his gut and logged in his right buttock.:eek: Fortunately it missed all vital areas and he lived. And thank god it did not his a fellow recruit. It took only a few milliseconds for this to go down. The instructor could not stop it. This is how stuff happens.

I know LEO's that I work with that are not gun people. They do not like guns, they do not train as they should and they are frankly afraid of guns. I know at lest on that Carry's his gun to and from work with just the mag in and no round in the chamber. I know others that only clean their guns when they are mandated to do so. What do you do with these people, you can't fire them and they will not change even if you kick their asses?

Rentacop 02-28-2010 03:44 PM

Bigguns911 :
In security, we have many guards who won't even buy a gun or practice shooting, unless they are afraid they will flunk the annual re-qualification shoot.

My best guess is that you must find a motivating factor that will cause the police officers to want to be experts. These are possibilities :
1) A Force on Force exercise to show them how ill-prepared they are and how terrifying it could be to face a gunman 60 feet away and be unable to hit him.

2) Form a pistol club in house and post a plaque each month honoring the winners.

3) Start each training class with a speech on how enjoyable the shooting sports can be and urge the recruits to get fun out of shooting.

4) Tell any cop that doesn't practice that he is endangering his fellow officers, who depend on him for team work, back-up etc. ( Some cops care more about their fellow cops than they do about the private citizens they're paid to protect ).

Washington D.C. once had a cop who carried an empty .38 because he did not want to shoot anyone. He eventually left the police and joined the Amish.

There was a Lieutenant on a security force who, at the end of his shift, handed his .38, in its holster, to a guard coming on duty. The guard receiving the .38 and holster, simply strapped them on and worked the graveyard shift. He spent an uneventful night checking buildings and foot patrolling. At the end of his shift, he turned in the gun and holster, only to find the .38 empty. The next day he asked the Lieutenant if he knew the gun he had given him was empty.
The Lieutenant replied matter-of-factly, " I never carry any bullets in my gun. "

Oh, the stories I could tell you !

5) Offer to help the skittish ones by spending an hour at thr range tutoring them.

BTW : There were details on that DEA AD vid linked above posted on Thesmokinggun.com.

Tackleberry1 02-28-2010 04:05 PM

Solution
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robocop10mm (Post 17332)
I have been a cop for 24 years. In that short time I have seen a massive shift in the people becoming officers. When I was a rookie, people got into LE partially because they were "gun people". They were hunters, shooters, reloaders and all around outdoorsmen. I spent 8 years as a training instructor and saw about 50% of the basic recruits that had never even handled a handgun. Teaching basic gun safety was a big chunk of the curriculum. Not enough common sense to understand which end the bullet comes out of. Fear, trepidation and the inability to hit the target, much less clear a malfunction with out repeated instruction.
Common sense is the missing link, IMHO. It seems to be in short supply in our society. People cannot "figure it out". They have to have a step by step detailed manual with cool pictures and power point presentation and then they still cannot remember to tap and rack.
Guns pointed everywhere but at the target. Range officers forced to qualify 25 people at once with no additional eyes on the shooters. Budget cuts that keep staff at a minimum and trigger time to the bare (State required) minimums each year.
Body armor is now mandatory for shooters and RO's. I have personally been hit 13 times by ricochets. 12 stopped by the armor. One at an IPSC match that just broke the skin.

I've never been an LEO but did serve 6 yrs army light infantry and never witnessed an AD with live ammo. My first Drill Instructor informed us that there was no such thing as an "accidental discharge". There were only two ways to fire a weapon, either intentionally or NEGLIGENTLY! I believe that simple shift in word usage from Accidental to Negligent really helped to get the attention of many new recruits. What also helped was the constant training, using blanks w/MILES gear, force on force stuff, that allowed all of us to hone our skills under the worst conditions, IE bad weather, no sleep, miserable conditions which seem to be the norm for any grunt. It's not realistic to think cops have the time to train this way but the very simple solution would be for departments to allow 4 yrs "Infantry or MP" service to substitute for the 4 yr degree requirement. I'm sure many offices like yourself would rather get partnered with a vet like me instead of some guy with a degree who does not know the firs think about muzzle control.

Tackleberry1 Out


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