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Old 11-29-2013, 11:17 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
Regarding the above post :
The authoritarian mindset rears its ugly head again, I see . This time it is mandatory training for anyone exercising his right to own a gun . Last time it was mandatory air bags and seat belt use, a mandatory law degree before you can assist a defendant in our courts, a license required of you to be a real estate salesman and more and more training for security guards ( How could I forget that one ? ) . Now they are pondering whether to force TSA employees to carry guns against their will or to continue to prohibit them from carrying guns . No one is even considering giving them the option of carrying guns ( freedom ) because the authoritarian, nanny state, protect us from ourselves ethos is all we know today .
As Objectivist philosophy teaches, government's proper function is to protect the rights of its citizens and nothing more . Visit to learn how to defend individual rights .
That would be my post, right! OK, I guess I’m, ‘an authoritarian’ all right. That’s because I’m, also, a firearms instructor, and a range safety officer. Let me tell you something: Without authority, everything is chaos; and nobody has to accept any personal responsibility for his actions.

In this instance we’re talking about gun handling and personal behavior on a firing line. The, ‘hard truth’ is that, with proper training - with the careful personal inculcation of the proper gun handling habits - this event never would have happened.

Sure, I understand the necessity for modern government to oversee many of the more dangerous functions in modern day life; and I understand the desire for everyone to be, ‘free’; but none of us are truly free; now, are we!

When it comes to firearm safety, ‘freedom’ can have disastrous results! I’ve been present when people have made mistakes with guns. Two things standout in my mind: (1) The shooter thought an accident with a gun could never happen to him (until it did); and (2) even though some of these shooters had a little bit of firearms training they were, all, largely undisciplined, ‘free spirits’ and wanted to do things in their way. (There are few things worse than the sudden appearance of blood on a firing line!)

As I’ve already mentioned in another post on this board: Memorizing gun safety rules is never enough. Until those rules are translated into personal safety habits I tell you, for a fact, that they are all completely irrelevant. We, all, want to be free spirits; we, all, prefer to behave as we, both, like and without consequence. Unfortunately, when it comes to firearms and gun safety, a gunman’s very first mistake can, also, be either his, or your last.

The problems I’ve had to deal with on firing lines seem to originate from several different sources:

(1) A problem shooter wants to do things, ‘his way’ and deliberately breaks the rules;

(2) A problem shooter always seems to believe that an accident is never going to happen to him because, ‘he’s too good’; and,

(3) Modern firearm technology can be overwhelming; and, sometimes, it, ‘catches up’ with someone whose gun handling skills are less than genuinely cautious.

Listen, as citizens, all of us need to trust government to act in our best interests; and, for any government to be able to function it needs to trust its citizens. The more complex a society’s social structure and technology are, the more a variety of rules and regulations becomes necessary.

Sure, everybody would like to be a free spirit; and leftover vestiges of yesterday’s, ‘hippie spirit’ remain anathema to authoritarian topics like gun safety; BUT, the inherent nature of firearms actually demands: Authority, personal accountability, and (as ugly as it might sound to some people) individual compliance and self-restraint.

When it comes to gun safety, you either do it the right way, every time; or you shouldn’t attempt to do it at all. I’m 70 years old; and I’ve been teaching firearm safety for more than two decades. Forget about what I’ve actually seen. (a lot!) I’ve known almost a dozen gun owner/shooters who’ve either shot themselves, someone else, or made a really serious mistake with a gun. Authority isn’t always bad; sometimes it can keep a shooter from doing, ‘that potential harm with a gun that he’s, otherwise, predisposed to commit’.

Mandatory training is fine with everyone when it comes to driving a car (or worse) a truck! When it comes to firearms, though, irrational thinking seems to take over. Society’s, ‘freer spirits’ always seem to start screaming about being left alone with their guns when (if nothing else) cooperation, obedience, and a social, ‘helping hand’ could prevent so very many of today’s firearm accidents from taking place.

It needs to be recognized that just like mandatory training to drive a car, or a truck, firearm safety training should NEVER be left up to the discretion of individual shooters. Sometimes authority works for the general public’s benefit. The event in this thread is one of those instances. Once a bullet leaves the muzzle it’s impossible to call it back!

My uncles were United States Marines. They were the men who taught me how to handle firearms and shoot; and they were, sure as Hell, ‘authoritarians’. What all gun safety ultimately comes down to is mutual cooperation, mutually agreed rules and regulations, and (You might not like this.) strict self-discipline.

Personally, I’ve never begrudged government the necessity to require driver training. Now, while I might be just as suspicious as you are of, ‘big government’s motives’ at the same time I realize that, generally, society needs discipline just as much as individual shooters do.

None of us live in a, ‘social vacuum’ so to speak. We, all, need each other; and those who are the strongest and most knowledgeable owe a, ‘social debt’ to those who, ‘haven’t, yet, arrived’. You see, like it or not, we’re all in this together; and authority isn’t (necessarily) a bad thing.

Know what? Your suspicions might be correct; but, still, that’s insufficient reason to avoid mandatory firearms safety training. Guns are (and always have been) inherently dangerous. The problem is to know how to shrewdly control that danger.

Me? I’m much more worried about lots and lots of people just walking into gun stores and walking out with a gun, ammunition, and an nice little safety pamphlet from the NRA on gun safety. It’s often been people like this who’ve ended up scaring the living daylights out of me BEFORE they had an opportunity to, ‘cancel’ themselves, or someone else, out; and you know, ‘where’ I think it starts? ……… With a shooter’s, ‘bad’ (or much too casual) personal attitude!

Suggest you lighten up. Nobody - not you, not me - has all the right answers; but each of us still needs to discover workable solutions to complex subjects like firearm safety in today’s increasingly technical, grossly overcrowded, and excessively self-indulgent world.

‘Guns’ are, and will remain, subject to all different sorts of authoritarian edicts. Hopefully none of these rules will reach the onus of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban; but THAT is not what I’ve been talking about, here; is it. It’s what YOU are referring to.

(This is the second time you've jumped in right behind something I've posted with a contrarian point-of-view. I hope you don’t have plans to follow me around the board like this; do you? Because if you do, I'm going to start ignoring your responses.)
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Old 11-29-2013, 01:18 PM   #82
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Old 11-29-2013, 09:10 PM   #83
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G21 -
You seem to have read a lot into my post . I'm not in favor of hippies, lazy people, irresponsibility or lack of concern for others. I'm for freedom and individual rights . I'm an Objectivist . I say that the proper function of government is only to protect citizens' rights .
I oppose prior restraint but if someone misbehaves, then he should suffer consequences .
I do not follow anyone around on the forums . I simply respond to what I read, as you can see by examining my past activity .
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:03 AM   #84
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G21 I don't care who you are or what your training is. It is none of the governments business who buys what firearm and what they know about it before during or after the purchase. We are already over regulated enough. You can always justify government control. And it always bites you in return.

You give them an inch and they take a mile. If some numbnuts wants to forego training and end up shooting his testicle off, that's a choice and a consequence made by a free person. Let em have at it.
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Old 11-30-2013, 12:06 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
Roger that, thanks. I HOPE he learns something from this. Kids, don't just love them. You can tell them about the mistakes you made, and even show them the scars, and they just don't learn. They have to go out and make the same silly mistakes we did!!!!
Yep. Just like you did. And me.

Our native Indians have it right - Life's a circle.

Glad it wasn't a lot worse.
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Old 11-30-2013, 07:57 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by Rocky7 View Post
Yep. Just like you did. And me.

Our native Indians have it right - Life's a circle.

Glad it wasn't a lot worse.
Thanks Rocky.

As for the post by G21 45. I disagree. I have been doing this 'gun stuff' for almost as long as you (I too am an old fart) but your analogy of the car/truck is not valid as the car/truck are about a trillion times more dangerous to us every day than a gun in the hands of an untrained individual will ever be.
Secondly, when the government start requiring training to exercise ANY of the rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights they are wrong.
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Old 11-30-2013, 08:35 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by JimRau View Post
Thanks Rocky.

As for the post by G21 45. I disagree. I have been doing this 'gun stuff' for almost as long as you (I too am an old fart) but your analogy of the car/truck is not valid as the car/truck are about a trillion times more dangerous to us every day than a gun in the hands of an untrained individual will ever be.
Secondly, when the government start requiring training to exercise ANY of the rights spelled out in the Bill of Rights they are wrong.


2010 motor vehicle deaths US=32,885
2010 accidental gun deaths US=606
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