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Old 09-13-2013, 01:04 AM   #61
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If you remember I posted the 'safest' handguns are TRUE double action revolvers and TRUE DAO semi-autos. This is just a fact!!!! They have no and need no safeties because they have a LONG (but smooth) trigger pull which requires a DELIBERATE act to fire. And I can tell you for a fact (experience) this does not slow you down one bit in a critical situation, and even if you find your 'finger on the trigger' they still require this LONG DELIBERATE pull to fire. What Glock, and others of similar design, TRYED to do is put their products forth as DAO, which they are not, to try and convince people they are as safe as the TRUE double actions, WHICH THEY ARE NOT.
I learned to have my finger inside the trigger guard (not pressing the trigger) of my revolver if I thought I was about to confront a 'threat' and this is safe with a TRUE double action gun but not with a Glock.
I have HAD to use Glocks for many years and I have learned to use them but it is very uncomfortable to me. When I was a SWAT team member and carried a 1911 I carried it cocked with the safety on and as I searched a building I would have my finger inside the trigger guard BUT the safety was on and under my thumb where I could snap it off if needed. I feel I had better control of the gun and could put it into play FASTER that way than having my trigger finger extended along the slid of the weapon.
To each his own, you do as you train. I do not see a need for the type of handguns designed by Glock. There was no problem with what we had been using. It was just a commercial venture which made them a lot of money, so others followed to get in on the $$$ but this did us a grave disservice, from a safety standpoint, for the sake of the $$$$.
By the way, are you aware the Glocks produced for sale to countries other than the USA have a thumb safety??
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Old 09-13-2013, 01:27 AM   #62
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Hope he heals fast Jim...
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Old 09-13-2013, 02:44 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
Can't blame them there. But you can't always pick and choose who your boss is gonna be.

For example, if they enlist under the next president, and decide to make the military a career, I'm sure eventually they'll have a bad president in office while they're serving.
I server under every president from Carter To GW, boy are you correct on that one! I am thankful that The Honorable Ronald Reagan was my CIC, Not so pleased with Bill Clinton, then I was happy with GW, then not so happy but by then I was retired!

Jim, tell him to join when he's good and ready, not a day sooner, I wish him a speedy recovery and a great future. I would advise him not to tell the recruiter he shot himself right off the bat, save that for later in the interview if he can help it!
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Old 09-13-2013, 04:01 AM   #64
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Jim-
Glock designed the gun to compete for the Austrian military contract . That's a commercial venture indeed and it has made them a lot of money . What's wrong with making money ? Nothing, unless you are falling for the anti-capitalist leftist culture now permeating our society . Read Atlas Shrugged if you don't understand .
Glock has never, to my knowlege, said their pistol is " double-action " . They use the term " safe-action " . You are accusing Glock of dishonesty unfairly .
No, I have not heard that Glocks produced for other countries have thumb safeties . How many and which countries are we talking about ?
The DA semi-autos were disliked by Jeff Cooper partly because the trigger pull for the first shot is way longer and harder than for the rest of the shots . Cooper thought this adversely affected accuracy . Such guns usually have a more complicated mechanism and more parts . With a DA type, after you fire one shot, you are left holding a cocked gun and must remember to decock it . Glock obviously felt they could improve on that set-up .
The DAO is safe but gives up the advantages of a light trigger entirely .
Revolvers are nice but people still manage to set them off accidentally by violating Rule #3 .

And speaking of Rule #3, you say, " I learned to have my finger inside the trigger guard (not pressing the trigger) of my revolver if I thought I was about to confront a 'threat' ..."
That practice violates Rule #3, of course . What would have happened if you tripped or fell or got startled enough to clench your fist ?
At the very least, you'd have had some creative report-writing to do .

You say, "When I was a SWAT team member and carried a 1911 I carried it cocked with the safety on and as I searched a building I would have my finger inside the trigger guard BUT the safety was on and under my thumb where I could snap it off if needed. "
That is also violating Rule #3 and comes with the same risks noted above. Suppose you tripped and clicked off the safety as you clenched your fist ? Worse, you could develop a bad habit that would place your finger on the trigger while holding a Condition Zero fired gun on a suspect under stress .
Forget the report-writing. Just hope there's no dash-cam filming you in that scenerio !

What we have here is a man who likes to keep his finger on the trigger, calling the glock unsafe .

Those of us who are trained to keep our finger off the trigger and up on the frame until it is an ingrained habit are less likely to find the Glock unsafe . And Rule #3 is on our side .
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:18 AM   #65
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Jim-
Glock designed the gun to compete for the Austrian military contract . That's a commercial venture indeed and it has made them a lot of money . What's wrong with making money ? Nothing, unless you are falling for the anti-capitalist leftist culture now permeating our society . Read Atlas Shrugged if you don't understand .
Glock has never, to my knowlege, said their pistol is " double-action " . They use the term " safe-action " . You are accusing Glock of dishonesty unfairly .
No, I have not heard that Glocks produced for other countries have thumb safeties . How many and which countries are we talking about ?
The DA semi-autos were disliked by Jeff Cooper partly because the trigger pull for the first shot is way longer and harder than for the rest of the shots . Cooper thought this adversely affected accuracy . Such guns usually have a more complicated mechanism and more parts . With a DA type, after you fire one shot, you are left holding a cocked gun and must remember to decock it . Glock obviously felt they could improve on that set-up .
The DAO is safe but gives up the advantages of a light trigger entirely .
Revolvers are nice but people still manage to set them off accidentally by violating Rule #3 .

And speaking of Rule #3, you say, " I learned to have my finger inside the trigger guard (not pressing the trigger) of my revolver if I thought I was about to confront a 'threat' ..."
That practice violates Rule #3, of course . What would have happened if you tripped or fell or got startled enough to clench your fist ?
At the very least, you'd have had some creative report-writing to do .

You say, "When I was a SWAT team member and carried a 1911 I carried it cocked with the safety on and as I searched a building I would have my finger inside the trigger guard BUT the safety was on and under my thumb where I could snap it off if needed. "
That is also violating Rule #3 and comes with the same risks noted above. Suppose you tripped and clicked off the safety as you clenched your fist ? Worse, you could develop a bad habit that would place your finger on the trigger while holding a Condition Zero fired gun on a suspect under stress .
Forget the report-writing. Just hope there's no dash-cam filming you in that scenerio !

What we have here is a man who likes to keep his finger on the trigger, calling the glock unsafe .

Those of us who are trained to keep our finger off the trigger and up on the frame until it is an ingrained habit are less likely to find the Glock unsafe . And Rule #3 is on our side .
Amen! This is the first time I've ever heard of anyone being trained to rest their finger on the trigger, regardless of the type of gun. Way too much potential for disaster. The problem with it is that it causes you to have to rely on fine motor skills to keep you safe and everyone knows that fine motor skills are the first thing you lose when the adrenaline starts pumping. We're trained to draw the gun with the trigger finger resting on the slide and keep it there until we're ready to shoot. That should be so ingrained that it becomes second nature. That way we don't put our own safety and the safety of others in jeopardy fumbling around with thumb safeties and the like while trying to remind ourselves not to pull the trigger. Too much to think about when your mind is racing in the chaos of a SD situation. As for the 1911, I don't have anything against it. I carried one cocked and locked every day for years but even then my finger always rested on the slide until I was ready to shoot. I would draw the 1911 with my finger resting on the slide and disengage the thumb safety so that the gun was ready to fire as soon as I placed my finger on the trigger. In other words, I was trained that way long before the Glock was even invented.
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Old 09-14-2013, 04:17 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
Jim-
Glock designed the gun to compete for the Austrian military contract . That's a commercial venture indeed and it has made them a lot of money . What's wrong with making money ? Nothing, unless you are falling for the anti-capitalist leftist culture now permeating our society . Read Atlas Shrugged if you don't understand .
Glock has never, to my knowlege, said their pistol is " double-action " . They use the term " safe-action " . You are accusing Glock of dishonesty unfairly .
No, I have not heard that Glocks produced for other countries have thumb safeties . How many and which countries are we talking about ?
The DA semi-autos were disliked by Jeff Cooper partly because the trigger pull for the first shot is way longer and harder than for the rest of the shots . Cooper thought this adversely affected accuracy . Such guns usually have a more complicated mechanism and more parts . With a DA type, after you fire one shot, you are left holding a cocked gun and must remember to decock it . Glock obviously felt they could improve on that set-up .
The DAO is safe but gives up the advantages of a light trigger entirely .
Revolvers are nice but people still manage to set them off accidentally by violating Rule #3 .

And speaking of Rule #3, you say, " I learned to have my finger inside the trigger guard (not pressing the trigger) of my revolver if I thought I was about to confront a 'threat' ..."
That practice violates Rule #3, of course . What would have happened if you tripped or fell or got startled enough to clench your fist ?
At the very least, you'd have had some creative report-writing to do .

You say, "When I was a SWAT team member and carried a 1911 I carried it cocked with the safety on and as I searched a building I would have my finger inside the trigger guard BUT the safety was on and under my thumb where I could snap it off if needed. "
That is also violating Rule #3 and comes with the same risks noted above. Suppose you tripped and clicked off the safety as you clenched your fist ? Worse, you could develop a bad habit that would place your finger on the trigger while holding a Condition Zero fired gun on a suspect under stress .
Forget the report-writing. Just hope there's no dash-cam filming you in that scenerio !

What we have here is a man who likes to keep his finger on the trigger, calling the glock unsafe .

Those of us who are trained to keep our finger off the trigger and up on the frame until it is an ingrained habit are less likely to find the Glock unsafe . And Rule #3 is on our side .
How many fire fights have you been in???
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Old 09-14-2013, 08:33 PM   #67
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You mean real firefights or just the ones I fantasize about ?
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Old 09-15-2013, 09:13 PM   #68
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Jim-
Ater rereading...My point was simply meant to be that if you are not in the habit of following Rule #3, the Glock is not likely to appeal to you . It may have come off sounding meaner than I intended . I did not mean to ridicule your practices even though I disagree with them .
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Old 09-16-2013, 01:53 AM   #69
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I have HAD to use the glock for many years but I don't like it. (I now carry a S&W on and off duty) I MUST instruct my students 'FOT' because there are some many handguns on the market which a SA w/o a safety!
The point I was making is there was and is no 'need' for a handgun like the Glock.
To give you an example. I took 5 deputies to the range and they qualified with their Glocks. Three of the five had not used any other gun but a glock. Two had shot a Sig (and both liked it better than the glock) as well as the glock. I personally shot my S&W 10 to 12% points better than ANY glock I have used.
I allowed them to shot my 'old' 5906 and ALL of them shot a better score than they did with the glock!!! Three were better than 10% points better than their glocks!!!
Many of those in LE today have never shot anything but a glock so they are clueless!
The last time I checked the MOST important part of surviving and prevailing in a gunfight is HIT PROBABILITY!!! So if you require ANYONE to use a specific handgun when it is not the one they shot best you are reducing the probability of them 'winning' when there is no second place, only winners and losers!
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Self Defense is an absolute and natural right!
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Last edited by JimRau; 09-16-2013 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:15 AM   #70
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I allowed them to shot my 'old' 5906 and ALL of them shot a better score than they did with the glock!!!
Of course they would. Great Guns (39, 59, 69).
That is if you can get your hand around the double stack grip.
It's got weight, It's got DA and hammer for SA and decent sights.

and it has a slide safety rather than the trigger wiggler.

Send Forum Good wishes to the kid!..
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