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-   -   Okay, Now I've seen trained people (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f55/okay-now-ive-seen-trained-people-96569/)

danf_fl 09-04-2013 10:15 PM

Okay, Now I've seen trained people
 
At the range, there were some young people who obviously were trained.
Pull the firearm out,
excellent hits on target,
looking both ways to see if all "aggressors" were neutralized,
reholster.

Yep, fine shooting on their part, but there were a couple of problems with their gun handling skills.

1. Pulling the firearm from the holster was okay, but on reholstering, they used the non-dominant hand to "verify" where the holster was on their belts, and promptly "swept" the muzzle over the non-dominant hand holding the holster (with loaded weapons and finger on trigger).

2. Dropping slides on empty chambers, or putting one "in the tube" and letting the extractor try to go over the rim of the casing, and other non-recommended moves.

When I explained what they were doing incorrect, they responded that was how they were trained.

Paying big bucks for training does not mean you are getting quality training in all cases.

Garadex 09-05-2013 06:49 AM

Let me guess they were also Black Forces Delta Elite SEAL 83 Operators? Took a class and they become tactical ninja's trained in the art of looking badass to the uninformed.

JW357 09-05-2013 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danf_fl
Paying big bucks for training does not mean you are getting quality training in all cases.

Exactly. Which is why I always shudder a little bit when people harp on training, training, training. No, don't just go get ANY training. Some of these guys teach bad habits. The important thing is to do research and find good training.

But also, you don't need excellent training, good training, or even bad training to know that you never flag someone, including yourself, at any time, especially when reholstering. I've heard the majority of AD/NDs happen while unholstering or reholstering.

My point is you don't have to pay for special training to know not to point your weapon at something you don't intend to shoot. Thatshould be common sense. Unfortunately, it obviously isn't always.

DeltaF 09-05-2013 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danf_fl
At the range, there were some young people who obviously were trained.
Pull the firearm out,
excellent hits on target,
looking both ways to see if all "aggressors" were neutralized,
reholster.

Yep, fine shooting on their part, but there were a couple of problems with their gun handling skills.

1. Pulling the firearm from the holster was okay, but on reholstering, they used the non-dominant hand to "verify" where the holster was on their belts, and promptly "swept" the muzzle over the non-dominant hand holding the holster (with loaded weapons and finger on trigger).

2. Dropping slides on empty chambers, or putting one "in the tube" and letting the extractor try to go over the rim of the casing, and other non-recommended moves.

When I explained what they were doing incorrect, they responded that was how they were trained.

Paying big bucks for training does not mean you are getting quality training in all cases.

This is true. Training and good training are two different things. And I have had good training and yet still learn more when I'm shooting with experienced shooters than I ever did in my training classes. Anybody who won't take advice is shooting themselves in the foot. When you stop listening you stop learning and when you stop learning you stop growing.

"putting one "in the tube" and letting the extractor try to go over the rim of the casing, and other non-recommended moves."

I'm not sure but this sounds like a combat load with a 12 gauge pump to me. Pretty standard stuff. In a firefight with a shotgun you come up empty. You have to get more rounds in the tube but you don't want to lower your muzzle and you don't want to keep an empty chamber so you put one in the ejection port and slam the pump forward. Then you load the tube the normal way while keeping the muzzle pointed at the threat area. I'm probably way off base though cuz the other issues you spotted looked like handgun issues. :shrug:

Either way its rude to blow advice off even if its bad advice (not that yours was, I'm sure it was excellent). Training is no substitute for experience.

orangello 09-05-2013 08:13 PM

Educate me on the "dropping slide on empty chambers" issue?

I don't usually let my semi-autos slam shut unless they are chambering a round, but I didn't know there was a reason.

danf_fl 09-05-2013 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeltaF (Post 1359329)
"putting one "in the tube" and letting the extractor try to go over the rim of the casing, and other non-recommended moves."

I'm not sure but this sounds like a combat load with a 12 gauge pump to me. Pretty standard stuff. In a firefight with a shotgun you come up empty. You have to get more rounds in the tube but you don't want to lower your muzzle and you don't want to keep an empty chamber so you put one in the ejection port and slam the pump forward. Then you load the tube the normal way while keeping the muzzle pointed at the threat area. I'm probably way off base though cuz the other issues you spotted looked like handgun issues.

That is okay with a shotgun, but with a 1911, that is a no-no.
The extractor will break or at least get out of tune creating extraction problems.

danf_fl 09-05-2013 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangello (Post 1359339)
Educate me on the "dropping slide on empty chambers" issue?

I don't usually let my semi-autos slam shut unless they are chambering a round, but I didn't know there was a reason.

Normal shooting:
Finger is holding the trigger and sear does not bounce on hammer.
Letting the slide slam forward without a round (that itself acts like a cushion), the sear gets slammed by the hammer. Ruined more than a couple of good trigger jobs.

DeltaF 09-05-2013 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danf_fl

That is okay with a shotgun, but with a 1911, that is a no-no.
The extractor will break or at least get out of tune creating extraction problems.

Some numbnuts is training kids to drop a round in the ejection port of a 1911? WTF? Why not jam a magazine in there and release the slide??? Who has time to fumble with a tiny handgun round and a tiny handgun ejection port? Equipment damage aside, in a real sticky situation once your stress level hits the fan and your fine motor skills go to crap all you're gonna do is drop the round on the ground or slice your finger open.

:deep breath:

Okay I'm done. Carry on.

7point62 09-05-2013 08:22 PM

There's a big disparity gap in the competency level of "certified" civilian firearms instructors. And there are too many gimmicks being passed off as technique.

Jagermeister 09-05-2013 08:30 PM

"When I explained what they were doing incorrect, they responded that was how they were trained."

Probably **** in their pants in a gun fight. End up shooting themselves in the foot on the draw.




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