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Old 01-13-2009, 05:40 PM   #11
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It's a noble thought to consider using less than lethal force against a criminal in your house in the dark. However, I'd be concerned that you use the ltl, which doesn't stop him, then blast the miscreant with 00 buck, blowing his guts all over your walls. Some anti-gun politician or DA might paint you as an evil SOB for torturing the choir boy with less than lethal then blowing him away. They could say that you obviously thought less than lethal was good enough, but then got bloodthirsty and shot the guy. If you're going to use less than lethal, I wouldn't use anything else. But I wouldn't use less than lethal anyway, nor give a warning shot to someone threatening harm. Well, maybe three warning shots: two to the chest and one to the head....

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Old 01-13-2009, 06:12 PM   #12
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Non lethal??????????? Just hand them your wallet and wife!

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Old 01-13-2009, 06:28 PM   #13
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Less lethal is still lethal force. If you're committed to to using lethal force to defend yourself, you really should use fully lethal force. When shooting, you need to do so to eliminate the threat, not to injure and infuriate the threat.

A center mass shot with 2/0 from a 12 ga. is going to do a lot more to eliminate a threat that pelting them with bean bags will.

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Old 01-13-2009, 09:08 PM   #14
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My brother in arms- I need to correct a term you used at the start of your post- you made reference to "non lethal" shotgun ammo. The only true "non-lethal" shotshell is an inert snap cap. ANY shotshell, including beanbag rounds MAY cause death. The term used by law enforcement is LESS LETHAL ammo.

The problem with using ANY of it is a defense setting is that Less Lethal may also very well be Less Effective. LEOs don't use them for defense- but for offense. Getting the drunk swinging a golf club to lay down. The Hsotage Rescue Team is using buckshot.

FWIW- and you WILL hear different opinions on this- I DO have a home defense shotgun. It is an unmodified pump shotgun, loaded with #4 birdshot. The MAX range this would be used in defense is probably 15-20 feet. Beyond that, they are outside of the house. For that, I have rifles!

The reason for the weapon and ammo selected- if I am facing a jury- either criminal or civil- after a shooting, I do NOT want a lawyer waving a firearm that looks like it fell out of Rambo's backpack. I would rather be able to say that in the gravest extreme, to defend my family, I had to use a bird gun to stop the bad guy.

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Old 01-13-2009, 09:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c3shooter View Post
My brother in arms- I need to correct a term you used at the start of your post- you made reference to "non lethal" shotgun ammo. The only true "non-lethal" shotshell is an inert snap cap. ANY shotshell, including beanbag rounds MAY cause death. The term used by law enforcement is LESS LETHAL ammo.

The problem with using ANY of it is a defense setting is that Less Lethal may also very well be Less Effective. LEOs don't use them for defense- but for offense. Getting the drunk swinging a golf club to lay down. The Hsotage Rescue Team is using buckshot.

FWIW- and you WILL hear different opinions on this- I DO have a home defense shotgun. It is an unmodified pump shotgun, loaded with #4 birdshot. The MAX range this would be used in defense is probably 15-20 feet. Beyond that, they are outside of the house. For that, I have rifles!

The reason for the weapon and ammo selected- if I am facing a jury- either criminal or civil- after a shooting, I do NOT want a lawyer waving a firearm that looks like it fell out of Rambo's backpack. I would rather be able to say that in the gravest extreme, to defend my family, I had to use a bird gun to stop the bad guy.
Words to live by. This is a perfect example of how equipment should follow purpose in the firearms world. It can and will kill and assailant, but at the same time it looks like a normal sporting arm that is loaded with sporting ammo. It's not the most lethal choice, but it's as politically correct as you can get and still defend you family and home.
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Old 01-13-2009, 09:19 PM   #16
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Less lethal is still lethal, just not as much. That sounds a bit off but let me explain. Rubber buckshot/slugs and bean bag rounds can and do cause serious bodily injury (and sometimes death) so they are still considered lethal force. Even a pepper spray shotguns shell could be lethal if used at contact distance. A blank is lethal when pressed against the body.

If you are going to use a lethal weapon, make sure it is used as intended, Lethally. If you do not want to use lethal force, use a Taser or pepper spray. These are NON-LETHAL.

For HD use with the possibility of over penetration use 7 1/2 shot. At 10-15 feet it will still be lethal but is far less likely to go through two sheetrock walls (it can but it is far less likely to).

Aim low. Under stress, people tend to hit high with a shot gun. Aim at the belt buckle or upper legs. If you do hit high, you are still center of mass. If you hit from the knees to the belly button, you will still have a very good chance of putting your adversary down. I am certaily not advocating "shooting them in the legs" as a less lethal option. It is still lethal. A low hit beats a high miss everyday.

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Old 01-13-2009, 09:20 PM   #17
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That's a real good point that c3 made. I still like my 1911, but it isn't decked out like a Mall Ninja gun, so I should be okay.

However, no matter what you take to the fight, it's still always better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6....

JD

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Old 01-13-2009, 09:52 PM   #18
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Sorry guys, like I have said before I am new to this. Sorry for the mix up in terminology. Noted.

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Old 01-13-2009, 10:12 PM   #19
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I have to agree, a shotgun is good but not the best choice. I have handguns scattered all over my home stratigically placed for fast access. They aren't visible to the casual visitor or dweller but they are there, and condition one ready. Both me and my wife can gain virtually instant access and can spray lead in less than three seconds from almost anywhere in the house.

I have an 18" pistol grip 12ga. and it's simply too hard to wheeld in most cases especially when there's a number of pistols close at at hand ready to rock.

When I watch TV, there's a 45ACP only a fraction of a second away.

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Old 01-13-2009, 11:36 PM   #20
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Kill 'em. Wounding an intruder simply gives him more motivation to kill you. Remember, THEY volunteered for the situation, and you were forced into it.

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