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-   -   Non Lethal Home Defense (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f55/non-lethal-home-defense-9919/)

Stuie 01-13-2009 04:25 PM

Non Lethal Home Defense
 
A friend of mine suggested using non lethal shells in the shotgun I am getting for home defense. Wanted your thoughts on it.

I am getting Mossberg 500
Here is what I was thinking for loading in it
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/12gaugeammo.html
http://www.deltaforce.com/catalog/lesslethalammo.html
1) Blammo Boomers Blank (Let them know this isn't going to end well)
2) Hornet's Nest
3) Tri-Dent
4) Power Punch
5) Rubber Rocket
6) Pit Bull (I make it here, they aren't leaving my house vertically)

Of course another friend during the discussion said load up all with Pit Bull ammo. My concern is coming from my room and stopping an intruder in my house I will inevitably point towards my soon to be baby's room.

Dillinger 01-13-2009 04:47 PM

Ew! That post is probably going to get ripped a bit, so you might want to reconsider some of the wording.

On the subject of home defense, personally & I assume others will agree, there is NO REASON for a Less Lethal solution. Once a person crosses the threshold of YOUR HOME, with intent to rob or harm you or your family, his rights to a fair beat down have been forfeit.

Now, a shotgun isn't my first choice for home defense, I prefer my pistol because of several reasons. The pistol is easier to acquire a target, it's easier to move from location to location with, it can be retracted to get through doorways and put back out and on target much faster & you have one "bullet" leaving the bore to worry about, not 8 or 10 or 12.

A shotgun is a good weapon for home defense, but not the best choice in my opinion. Having said that....

If you choose a shotgun, and you feel you must give the bad guy a fighting chance, one round, in the chamber, of a non lethal ammo like a bean bag round would be ALL that I would comfortably recommend. After that, I would recommend that you think highly of adding some real man stopper rounds behind it, just in case. Some guys like 000 buck, some like birdshot, it's a mixed bag of who likes what.

You should never, hopefully, be put in a spot where you need to muzzle sweep your future child's location/room. If you do, a scattergun is the last thing you are going to want to be holding, because it's the worst weapon for that scenario, even at a close distance. Hit the guy in the side and some of the shot might go through, or some might rip through his shirt/jacket and carry on their merry way.

I would suggest taking a look at the lay out of your residence:

First, light up the outside with bright, motion sensitive lights that will keep the average "burglar" moving on up the street.

Consider a dog - any dog will make noise if someone from outside his "pack" is coming to the house, even if they will only lick them to death, they will at least alert you, which can be priceless.

2x2 sticks in all the sliding windows and upgrade to serious deadbolt locks in your exposed and outside doors.

If your house is a split level, or a two story, keep the family sleeping upstairs if possible, that gives you a staircase for a bottle neck to easily protect from high ground.

If you have a rambler, take a look at the areas around the windows near the bed rooms. Is there something that you could plant there that would make it painful/much harder to get to the window in question. Holly Bushes are great for that. As is poison ivy - but who wants poison ivy outside their kids window? :rolleyes: Avoid anything "nice" - you don't want a good place to hide, you want something that says "That is going to suck if I go to THAT window, how about THAT one instead".

Inside the house, consider the layout of the furniture, consider the avenues of approach and retreat. If you have 100 year old Oak and Mahogany piano that would stop a .44 slug, you don't want the bad guy to be able to hide behind it obviously. :D

On top of those relatively minor things - consider some alarm style noise makers. They can be had at most electronic ( Radio Shack ) style places that just make noise when someone opens a door or window. I believe I read in another thread that you can also get glass breakage ones that make noise as well.

A good cell phone, that gets reception and is charged up, near your location during the evening hours at all times. And of course a couple of really good, bright ass flashlights never hurt to have, even as a distraction.

Good luck -

JD

ranger_sxt 01-13-2009 05:01 PM

Your friends are idiots.

Stuie 01-13-2009 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dillinger (Post 62157)
Ew! That post is probably going to get ripped a bit, so you might want to reconsider some of the wording.

On the subject of home defense, personally & I assume others will agree, there is NO REASON for a Less Lethal solution. Once a person crosses the threshold of YOUR HOME, with intent to rob or harm you or your family, his rights to a fair beat down have been forfeit.

Now, a shotgun isn't my first choice for home defense, I prefer my pistol because of several reasons. The pistol is easier to acquire a target, it's easier to move from location to location with, it can be retracted to get through doorways and put back out and on target much faster & you have one "bullet" leaving the bore to worry about, not 8 or 10 or 12.

A shotgun is a good weapon for home defense, but not the best choice in my opinion. Having said that....

If you choose a shotgun, and you feel you must give the bad guy a fighting chance, one round, in the chamber, of a non lethal ammo like a bean bag round would be ALL that I would comfortably recommend. After that, I would recommend that you think highly of adding some real man stopper rounds behind it, just in case. Some guys like 000 buck, some like birdshot, it's a mixed bag of who likes what.

You should never, hopefully, be put in a spot where you need to muzzle sweep your future child's location/room. If you do, a scattergun is the last thing you are going to want to be holding, because it's the worst weapon for that scenario, even at a close distance. Hit the guy in the side and some of the shot might go through, or some might rip through his shirt/jacket and carry on their merry way.

I would suggest taking a look at the lay out of your residence:

First, light up the outside with bright, motion sensitive lights that will keep the average "burglar" moving on up the street.

Consider a dog - any dog will make noise if someone from outside his "pack" is coming to the house, even if they will only lick them to death, they will at least alert you, which can be priceless.

2x2 sticks in all the sliding windows and upgrade to serious deadbolt locks in your exposed and outside doors.

If your house is a split level, or a two story, keep the family sleeping upstairs if possible, that gives you a staircase for a bottle neck to easily protect from high ground.

If you have a rambler, take a look at the areas around the windows near the bed rooms. Is there something that you could plant there that would make it painful/much harder to get to the window in question. Holly Bushes are great for that. As is poison ivy - but who wants poison ivy outside their kids window? :rolleyes: Avoid anything "nice" - you don't want a good place to hide, you want something that says "That is going to suck if I go to THAT window, how about THAT one instead".

Inside the house, consider the layout of the furniture, consider the avenues of approach and retreat. If you have 100 year old Oak and Mahogany piano that would stop a .44 slug, you don't want the bad guy to be able to hide behind it obviously. :D

On top of those relatively minor things - consider some alarm style noise makers. They can be had at most electronic ( Radio Shack ) style places that just make noise when someone opens a door or window. I believe I read in another thread that you can also get glass breakage ones that make noise as well.

A good cell phone, that gets reception and is charged up, near your location during the evening hours at all times. And of course a couple of really good, bright ass flashlights never hurt to have, even as a distraction.

Good luck -

JD

Thanks JD, like a said before, I am a newbie and I am here to ask questions and learn.

First I do have a dog, 25lbs Cocker Spaniel, not a vicious dog, but hell of a loud one. She won't bite, but she let's me know if someone opens an outside door or window. But she stays crated at night.

Second, I have alarm system installed in the house. But we have been there 2 years and never had it turned on but it does give out chimes for opening exterior doors and windows.

Third my lay of my house is fairly open but my master is separated from the other two bedrooms. No major obstructions to get behind except the fridge, but at that point I can just shoot through the wall and get them easy.

Well I guess I will just keep my XDm handy and use my Mossberg strictly for skeet.

Well JD, if I get ripped because my gun experience is at the very best...essential none in the last 15 years, and before that was only a few weeks of skeet shooting, I guess those people will just show their maturity.

Dillinger 01-13-2009 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuie (Post 62170)

Well JD, if I get ripped because my gun experience is at the very best...essential none in the last 15 years, and before that was only a few weeks of skeet shooting, I guess those people will just show their maturity.

I was talking more about the verbage of the post, not the actual knowledge/lack of. The guys here don't like to see things like "I will inevitably point towards my soon to be baby's room". That is a RED FLAG condition that should never arise if planned properly.

Other than that, so far, it sounds like you are off on the right foot. The dog and the alarm will definitely be a great deterrent, and both will give you adequate warning should the need arise.

The shotgun is good for home siege defense, but for middle of the night, trying to make sure the baby is okay and the dog is going Ape Sh!t, my first choice would be my 1911 and my flashlight, both of which I keep next to the bed in the small safe.

JD

Stuie 01-13-2009 05:32 PM

Well JD didn't mean to make sound like that, it's just the layout of my house, it's a single level and slightly odd, when I come out of my room and there is an intruder, unless they have entered my office or my baby's room there's a chance that my line of fire puts the bullet, if missed, into my baby's room.

Does that make more since?

That's where my concern lies. That's why I was looking at non lethal ammo and a shotgun.

Would a .40 with JHP be just as effective with lowering the risk?

spittinfire 01-13-2009 05:43 PM

My question for this is why use anything but lethal force? I do not want to kill anyone and I hope I never have to but if someone comes into my home I don't want to give them the chance to retaliate.
Your given set up requires 5 shots to be fired before reaching something serious and remember you have to be able to reasonably justify each one of these. I agree with JD, 1 warning shot at most, after that the lead needs to fly. If you're in my house at 2 am and I don't know who you are, you are not welcome and rather then take the chance risking myself and my wife's safety I would prefer to shoot now and ask later.
I also keep a 45 on my night stand and a shotgun isn't far away, in which I prefer buckshot but a load of birdshot at a distance within a home will make someone think twice.

Glad to have you here and keep that baby safe!

Dillinger 01-13-2009 05:48 PM

That makes MUCH more sense to me, and I assume, the other members here as well.

What is the construction of the walls like in your home? Standard sheet rock, no insulation on the interior walls? I ask because I have owned houses with and without interior wall insulation and it makes a difference for this discussion, plus I don't remember where you live. :p

In the future young stuie's room, can you arrange it so that you could put s/he's changing table and perhaps some other "furniture" along the interior wall to minimize over penetration issues? Get the crib over and out of the direct line of fire? Have you considered changing the interior door to a solid wood door like your front door? That would go a long ways towards lessening the risk and is easy to do.

I believe that a shotgun, with birdshot ( though I don't recall the specific size - Robo will know, as will bkt ) has been proven to be able to be stopped by a double layer of sheetrock, so if you can arrange the room to minimize the threat, and stock your shotty with the aforementioned bird rounds, that might be a good ticket for your specific situation.

As for the .40 - I carried a .40 for years, a Sig 229. I have tried plenty of rounds against plenty of materials and I can say, pretty solidly, that a .40 S & W will punch through two laters of sheet rock.

One thing you might consider for the pistol is Glaser Safety Rounds. They are designed to go into a material, like flesh or other dense solid, and disperse energy out, instead of forward, leading to less of a chance for over penetration.

JD

I have tried them, and in semi dense material like a watermelon they make a hell of a mess, but I did get some blow out on the back side. I highly doubt a Glaser would exit a human body with enough energy to go through a wall or a solid wood door.

Stuie 01-13-2009 05:55 PM

Thanks JD. Well I am in Texas and we don't have insulation in the interior walls, well not in this house.

Furniture placement is a great tip.

I don't plan on ever shooting inside my house, but I plan for the worst and hope the best!

I really appreciate the help JD I will look into those rounds. I may end up keeping a couple of extra magazines, a set for carry, and a set for home defense.

Franciscomv 01-13-2009 06:05 PM

No law abiding gun owner wants to kill anybody, but in a home invasion the bad guy is NOT going to be resorting to less than lethal weapons.

A good alarm, a noisy and alert dog, strong locks and a plan in case an intruder breaks in are the first things you should worry about, then find a gun that works well with your plan. I live alone, but in the near future my girlfriend and her eight year old son might move in. I'll have to change my current plan (AKA "anything in the house is fair game") drastically.

Shotguns are great home defense weapons, especially if your plan is something along the lines of getting all the family members in a room and covering the door. A handgun is better if you're going to move around the house. Having both is ideal. My current choices are a S&W 686 revolver and a Remington 870 shotgun.

Welcome to the forum!


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