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kdog 12-21-2008 11:42 AM

Need some advice - Shooting
Hi guys,

I need a bit of advice.

When I shooting my Pistol (CZ75) with the fixed sight, I always hit bottom left (somewhere between jerking and snapping).
We mounted a LPA sight onto my CZ. Unfortunately the LPA with the original front sight dosn`t match up to well, since the LPA is to high in it`s lowest position.
So aiming to the far bottom of the target I can somewhat manage to get some rounds in the area between 6 and 10 rings, but not consistent.
So I took the LPA off again and the fixed sight back on.

So I still seem to be somewhat afraid of the shot/bang/recoil, what makes me jerk my wrist downward.

Any advice, on how to lose the fear and keeping my wrist steady?

I could shoot in comparisson, since one of my mates has the same CZ75 and took it along to the range. So I shot whith the LPA and putting some of them into the wanted area and shooting the otehr CZ75 with fixed sights hitting bottom left.

Any advice is welcome.


PS: Distance is 25 metres shooting at ring targets

Mark F 12-21-2008 12:06 PM

Practice, practice, practice... the more you shoot, the less gun-shy you will become. Also, get used to using your finger tip to squeeze the trigger.

I shoot a CZ75B in 40 S&W caliber, and it's dead on POA. Go back to your original sights...

Ricebrnr 12-21-2008 01:16 PM

Whenever I see posts like this, I think basics, basics, basics.

Start with how are you holding your pistol? With a proper 2 handed grip, it should be very difficult for your wrists to affect your shots that way.

Once a month I help teach a CPL/CCW course and the people who shoot consistently off center benefit greatly with a little instruction on proper grip.

After that check your stance. Doesn't matter if you prefer Weaver, Isoceles or a modified version, just make sure you're leaning into not away from the target.

Hope that helps.

OFADAN 12-21-2008 02:34 PM

Not being ugly and only sharing from my experiences....I'm going to respectfully disagree to just practice. Practice does not make "perfect;" practice makes "permanent!"

So if you are having issues, problems, flinching etc - practicing more is only going to turn them into muscle memory - or permanent habits...and now you're worse off than you are now. "Practice makes permanent!"

My friend what you have is a skill related deficiency...that's all. You are unconsciously AND consciencly incompetent. You don't know-what you don't know. You know you are flinching or jerking or whatever but you don't know why you're doing it and more importantly HOW to correct it! So just shooting more and/or buying new sights isn't going to fix it! Say, it is nothing to be overly concerned about as long as you can find someone who can diagnose your issue and offer the approprate intervention/correction. Once you've been taught the correct way THEN practice and build the new skill into a permanent muscle memory.

Just buying more sights and other gear isn't going to make the problem go need to invest the $$ and time to find the right person to help you. Once you develop the skill then you can pick up anything from a $3000 Wilson combat 1911 to a $23 POJ pistol with the worst sights in the world and still be able to shoot and shoot well.

I started out shooting in rock pits when i was 12...I flinched, and yanked and jerked the trigger but I was so incompetent and ignorant I didn't know any better. I have spent two person's wages buying gear always thinking the next new gaget will improve my didn't and it won't!

Then about 30 years ago I helped a friend and in return they signed me up to a (now) big name shooting school. That gift changed my life - literally. The best gift I ever got!

A case in point...a few years ago I was doing a demostration in front of 15 to 20 diginitaries. They asked me to shoot a particular gun - which just happened to be a cheap I did a LEO qualification course with this particular gun. The rear sight fell off during the first stage of fire out of 5 stages total. I didn't even hesitate and just let my correct 'permanent' muscle memory kick in. By the grace of God and good technique I was able to shoot a perfect qualification score, without the aid of a rear sight, and the dignitaries never knew I had a mechancal related problem....all I did was rely on my training and the correct technique with a piece of junk pistol and still was successful.

Do yourself a the $$$ on the sights and seek out a reputatable school and take a one or two day class! It will change your shooting life - forever....or you can continue down this same conventional wisdom path and be chasing guns and sights and holsters and whatever for the rest of your life and never improve much!

Sorry in advance if my blatent honesty is too "over the top"...

BillM 12-21-2008 03:16 PM

Set up some sandbags, rest the frame just in front of the trigger guard
on them and concentrate on a slow smooth trigger pull. If it hits
the middle of the target it's not the gun.

Get some coaching. If there aren't any coaches around, have
someone videotape your shooting. I've seen LOTS of things on
video that I didn't know I was doing while shooting.

I'm assuming you are shooting 2 handed? Establish a correct grip,
and really concentrate on the weak hand grip.

Jay 12-21-2008 03:31 PM

For a right-handed shooter, use as is.... for a left-handed shooter, flip it left to right.

Rentacop 12-21-2008 03:39 PM

Lots of good advice in these posts . I would advise shootig a .22 target pistol or an accurate air pistol to see if you shoot well when there is no recoil and loud bang . If you can shoot a .22 fine, then your problem is flinch .

To cure flinch, (1) Dry fire a lot . You can buy or make snap caps if you are afraid dry fire will damage your gun . ( 2) Have a friend load up " ball and dummy " drills for you . When you hit an empty, you'll see how badly you pull down on the gun ! (3) If you shoot a 9mm , try a .45 for 100 rds. After that, the nine will feel like a .22 and you'll lose your flinch/fear . ( 3) Hold the trigger to the rear for a split second after the shot fires ; helps teach follow-through and cure flinch .

Bench rest your gun and fire it to check the zero . Some guns shoot dead on at 25 yards and some shoot low until 50 yards . Be sure your gun is not a problem before working on your marksmanship.

Concentrate on sight alignment and not the trigger. Keep pressing as you watch the front sight and maintain your sight picture as if the gun never fired ( you'll see the front sight rise straight up ) . If your eyes are focused on the front sight and you do not
blink, you will see if the front sight drops or goes left and be able to predict the placement of the shot .
Be patient . Even experienced shooters flinch sometimes . You are doing some things right : You are placing the target far enough away to force you to shoot properly. You are working on marksmanship instead of speed . Bravo !
Look into the many resources cited on the " Any Good Books Thread " and the target diagrams posted on another thread my the NRA instructor .

kdog 12-21-2008 08:43 PM

o.k. guys, thank`s for all the posts and the help.

I will try to answer all in one post.

practice is a good advice, but I also agree, that I first have to get the mistakes I make away, otherwise it could turn out negative.

I put the original sights back on after I came back from the range today. Putting on the LPA was an idea, but not a good one, since the rear sight didn`t match up well to the front sight. The reason we put the LPA on, was that I shot a CZ75B last month, that had a LPA and a tuned trigger and the came in dead on, so we thought, or better I thought it would help. I was tought a better one on that.

My mate from the range, a police shooting instructor here in germany, has a Kadet downgrade system for the CZ75 that I used when shooting his gun and that worked out fairly good, but not perfect.

What I notice every now and then is, when I pull the trigger slowly, I expect the shot to break at a specific point, but the shot breaks a bit later and that makes me tilt down my wrist unwanted.
Since I have the CZ75 that has gotten better. It was really bad when shooting the stock Glock17 from my mate, that has the original trigger system and is extremly heavy. (One reason I don`t like to shoot the Glock). The trigger on the CZ75 is much smoother.

I will use a bench rest for pistols next time I am at the range to check the accuracy on the 25 metres, but that will mostlikely first be next year in January. Have to see, if I make it to the range a further time this year or not.

I will keep you guys postet on this. But any bit of advice is welcome here.


jeepcreep927 12-22-2008 12:17 AM

"To cure flinch, (1) Dry fire a lot . You can buy or make snap caps if you are afraid dry fire will damage your gun . ( 2) Have a friend load up " ball and dummy " drills for you . When you hit an empty, you'll see how badly you pull down on the gun !" Rentacop (sorry, I don't know how to quote part of a post)

This is the best advice I know of to address flinch or anticipation. As a full time instructor for 4 years, 363 days a year, 10 hours a day, trigger control was the single most common error I observed. Grip was second (overgripping).

eapking 12-22-2008 02:32 AM

Someone else mentioned this but...

Assuming you are right handed. I had the same problem. Had someone tell me to not have the trigger go past the quick of the nail on your index/trigger finger. It took a while to get used to it, and my finger tip got pretty wore out the first time trying. It did work though. Got a lot more near center (classic round target).

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