Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Need help dealing with newbie shooters on my range

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-22-2013, 12:15 PM   #51
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pasco Cty.FL
Posts: 6,512
Liked 2446 Times on 1393 Posts
Likes Given: 1911

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitestalker View Post
As a by stander it sounds like you are turning your range into a point for confrontations. It seems you are determined to win an argument. As a business owner I would want to find a polite resolution.
Tell us about your RSOs.
__________________
therewolf is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 04:42 AM   #52
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
NobleEagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Tampabay, FL
Posts: 14
Liked 5 Times on 5 Posts
Likes Given: 9

Default

After reading two pages of replies I see that there are a lot of great ideas. I'be run into a couple of situations here in Florida that may be a good idea for you to look into. Have you ever considered opening your range free of charge to other instructors yet their students have to pay for the range time at your normal rate? If you advertise this you're not only bringing in new customers and getting your normal fee but they are obviously being trained by new certified NRA instructors (which you can verify their credentials). Of course you have your classes as well but you're making sure that your new clientele is not only trained but they also know you are there while still keeping your doors open. Especially new instructors that may have that as a side business may not have the money to have a classroom or an office, even if you do not offer office space for them to hold their class, you may want to advertise to other instructors that they can utilize your range for their "range certifications". This is just an idea and I know we are limited in my area of Florida that will allow for this. Good luck and I will be following this post hoping that it pans out for you soon. Also please reply with what state and area you are in. Thank you.

__________________
NobleEagle is offline  
kfox75 Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 08:32 AM   #53
Retired
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
danf_fl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: LA (Lower Alabama),FL
Posts: 10,130
Liked 2752 Times on 1595 Posts
Likes Given: 1202

Default

You may consider having a free Saturday near hunting seasons where people can verify the sight-in of their rifles.

__________________

Amendment II:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Life Member NRA
Life Member NAHC
Former President of the ECPT (Eifel Combat Pistol Team)

danf_fl is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 10:13 AM   #54
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pasco Cty.FL
Posts: 6,512
Liked 2446 Times on 1393 Posts
Likes Given: 1911

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf View Post
Tell us about your RSOs.
Your lack of response isn't very re-assuring.

No offense, but from what I've heard about this

"range" so far, you do as much a disservice

to the users as the non-users. Sounds like time for an NRA

safety intervention, IMHO.
__________________
therewolf is offline  
NobleEagle Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 06:42 PM   #55
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick1967 View Post
I am a businessman. I totally see where you are coming from. I manage a hotel. I was the first hotel in my city to go all non smoking. It pissed off most of the smokers. But most people don't know that 80% of hotel fires are started by smokers. If I can save one person's life I don't care how many people I piss off doing it.
I certainly didn't know that about the 80% figure. I would think that, with such a decision, your insurance would have decreased as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick1967 View Post
If you are talking about reviews on google, you as a business owner have the ability to respond to the reviews. If I were you I would respond to all of them explaining that you have seen people holding a gun with their thumb behind the slide...stuff like that. Let them know you are just looking out for them. You can also actively solicit your good customers to go to the site and leave a positive review. If you get enough good ones it will bury the bad ones.
I have done half of what you suggested: I have solicited good customers to post good reviews for me, and they have. It is just the here or there angry ones that post bad reviews, and I have plenty of good ones to balance it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfox75 View Post
GSO,

I have seen some excellent ideas posted here. enough so that I think your solution lies in the preceding 5 pages worth of posts. One I did not see is do you have a friend or family member who meets your safety standards, who would be willing to take over the day to day operations of the range?
Nope.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfox75 View Post
If not that, one of the above who is retired and looking for something productive to do?
I tried this before. I had this friend who was retired, NRA certified, firearms instructor, who I thought I could trust. He would help me run the store. Well, he stabbed me in the back. He made an excuse that he had to leave town for a month, then I found out through the grapevine that he had opened up his own gun store in a nearby town. He always thought he could do things better than me, but his gun store flopped and closed down after only a few months in business.

I will never trust anyone again who isn't my close friend. I only have a small handful of close friends and they are not capable of running a gun store. So it's just me as far as I can see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfox75 View Post
Or as someone else on here said, trusted customers who could be utilized as volunteer RSOs, as this could help to lessen the strain on you of running 2 seperate businesses under one roof. You would still retain some say as to who is allowed, bot it would also be balanced out with them have an equal ability to say yay or nay.
This is one of the best ideas in this thread and I do plan on following through with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfox75 View Post
Liability waivers are a good idea, especially in conjunction with cameras and RSOs.
I do have waivers; everyone is required to sign them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfox75 View Post
You seem like a decent person, hard to tell with just written words, but you do. it might just be the stress is getting to you a little, which can and does affect interaction with others. Please give the above suggestions some consideration. They are coming from someone who worked customer service for over 20 years, and who ran a small business for 15 years (in addition to managing 2 more part time while running his own), so I know the level of stress you are under. Basically, I don't think you are a d!ck, I just think you are stretched too thin right now. Find someone you can trust and pass them the reigns for a little while.

Best of luck with this, and keep us posted.
I appreciate that. You have no idea. I work 6 days a week. I stress about the business a lot. I have various problems and challenges and some of them I don't know how to address or fix. I feel overwhelmed often by the business. Definitely stretched too thin. And I don't trust anyone to help me except for the occasional volunteer RSO or RSO who is trading for range time. I can't take chances with employees because I've been burned before by that. And I won't let anyone touch my books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by therewolf View Post
You are losing a LOT of business, and pissing people off.

Don't want to run a public range? Then WHY do people perceive it as such?

It's hard to find a close public range, and it's "abrasive" to raise

peoples expectations, then deny them shooting time based on

your arbitrary decision as to their experience.



DON'T want to run a range? THEN shut it down.

Because you will wind up with trouble, if you keep waving

a tempting opportunity to shoot under people's noses, then

yanking it away from them at the last second.


IMHO, you need to fix this fast.
You are right; people have this perception and expectation that they will just be allowed to waltz in on my range and they don't realize how much liability this causes or how dangerous shooting really is. I am having a sign made that I will be posting on the outside of my building that will fix people's expectations before they come through the door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenGlamis View Post
You certainly can't judge someone by their holding of the blue gun (I have small hands compared to hubby, not sure if we would pass?) or general statements and let them loose in your range unsupervised if they pass your tests.
I do use a blue gun as part of my determination as to allow them to get on the range. For example, if they put their thumb in front of the slide they automatically disqualify until they get some training. Also, if they use the cup and saucer method, and they are not retired military who were trained to do it that way, this tells me they do not know what they are doing and are a liability and a hazard on the range and they are disqualified until they receive further training. In addition, if I see that they have a physical or mental disability, they are disqualified as well. I take a hard stance on safety. But my regulars know that I'm keeping it safe.
__________________

Last edited by GunStoreOwner; 08-09-2013 at 06:45 PM.
GunStoreOwner is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 07:12 PM   #56
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JW357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 6,724
Liked 3725 Times on 2283 Posts
Likes Given: 1224

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GunStoreOwner

I do use a blue gun as part of my determination as to allow them to get on the range. For example, if they put their thumb in front of the slide they automatically disqualify until they get some training. Also, if they use the cup and saucer method, and they are not retired military who were trained to do it that way, this tells me they do not know what they are doing and are a liability and a hazard on the range and they are disqualified until they receive further training. In addition, if I see that they have a physical or mental disability, they are disqualified as well. I take a hard stance on safety. But my regulars know that I'm keeping it safe.
I think Glamis' point was: that's exactly what you shouldn't do.

You need to remove he subjectivity in that particular test. My wife shoots with her thumb behind the slide, and while it others me to no end, it isn't unsafe at all. She is more comfortable shooting that way. I would put her accuracy, especially considering she's only been shooting handguns for about a year, against most other "experienced" shooters. She has never ever done anything that made me nervous in terms of safety. I'm an active Marine, so the idea of safety is stressed before everything else, in every activity (not just shooting). I would notice if she were doing anything unsafe, and she hasn't ever. Her grip is in no way unsafe. Yet she would be disqualified from shooting on your range.

As to the cup and saucer method. That's just plain ridiculous. There isn't anything unsafe at all about it. Most revolver shooters use that method. Myself included. I don't with a semi-auto, because I achieve more accuracy with the thumbs forward method. My choice in not using the cup and saucer method has nothing to do with safety.

Remove the subjectivity from your safety determination, or I guarantee you will continue getting negative reviews.

You can ave your regulars post good reviews all you want. It won't do any good. When I'm reading reviews of something, of anything, I personally only ever read the negative reviews. People who have negative reviews are usually being honest and don't review unless they had a particularly unpleasant experience. Good reviews can't always, in my mind, be trusted. Because they are inflated.

Again, remove the subjectivity or it will hurt your business.
__________________

Always have clean socks.

JW357 is offline  
NobleEagle Likes This 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 08:07 PM   #57
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
I think Glamis' point was: that's exactly what you shouldn't do.

You need to remove he subjectivity in that particular test. My wife shoots with her thumb behind the slide, and while it others me to no end, it isn't unsafe at all.
It surprises me that she has not yet come out of the range bleeding or with a broken thumb. I have had many cases of people coming out of my range bleeding because of this very issue: they put their thumb behind the slide, and the slide came back and got their thumb. Blood goes everywhere and I'm left to clean it up.

A few days ago a couple came to shoot at my range. When I asked the woman how she would hold the blue gun, she put her thumb behind the slide. Because her husband was prior military, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and I instructed the woman in the right way to grip the gun.

However, when they got on the range, the woman put her thumb behind the slide and of course it got her, and her thumb bled a lot. They came out of the range and told me they had an accident. They didn't tell me they had left blood drops on the floor in my range. I had to clean that up later.

So, this matter is not at all subjective to me. It's quite a consistent pattern that shooters who put their thumb behind the slide end up bleeding, and I can't have that happening on my range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
She has never ever done anything that made me nervous in terms of safety. I'm an active Marine, so the idea of safety is stressed before everything else, in every activity (not just shooting). I would notice if she were doing anything unsafe, and she hasn't ever. Her grip is in no way unsafe. Yet she would be disqualified from shooting on your range.
I am shocked and baffled as to how she avoids getting slidebite. She must be removing her thumb just in time when the slide comes back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
As to the cup and saucer method. That's just plain ridiculous. There isn't anything unsafe at all about it. Most revolver shooters use that method. Myself included. I don't with a semi-auto, because I achieve more accuracy with the thumbs forward method. My choice in not using the cup and saucer method has nothing to do with safety.
I find that people who shoot using the cup and saucer method tend to have much less experience and safety knowledge than those who use correct methods, and therefore, these people are inherently less safe. In addition, using the cup and saucer method decreases accuracy and therefore increases damage to my range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JW357 View Post
Remove the subjectivity from your safety determination, or I guarantee you will continue getting negative reviews.

You can ave your regulars post good reviews all you want. It won't do any good. When I'm reading reviews of something, of anything, I personally only ever read the negative reviews. People who have negative reviews are usually being honest and don't review unless they had a particularly unpleasant experience. Good reviews can't always, in my mind, be trusted. Because they are inflated.

Again, remove the subjectivity or it will hurt your business.
The majority of the negative reviews have so far been coming from newbie shooters that I didn't allow on my range because they were not safe. They get angry because they believe they have a right to get on my range and that my requirements are arbitrary or that I just made them up to make me feel good.

But the truth is that my requirements are based on my experience running a range, and are therefore based in reality.
__________________
GunStoreOwner is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 08:23 PM   #58
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Chainfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,460
Liked 1281 Times on 803 Posts
Likes Given: 308

Default

I don't blame you a damn bit. Even if not for the liability issue, you would hate to have some newbie shoot himself or someone else on your range. If some of your customers don't like it, so sorry. Your good customers will appreciate your attitude.

I teach a CCW class on my home range. Nobody shoots on my range unless I am confident that they have the right knowledge, skills and attitude to shoot safely.

__________________

"It is better to be too skeptical then too credulous"

Carl Sagan

Chainfire is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 08:38 PM   #59
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Pasco Cty.FL
Posts: 6,512
Liked 2446 Times on 1393 Posts
Likes Given: 1911

Default

So, where was I ? Oh, yes.

Tell us about your RSOs.

__________________
therewolf is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2013, 08:41 PM   #60
FTF_SUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
JW357's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 6,724
Liked 3725 Times on 2283 Posts
Likes Given: 1224

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GunStoreOwner

It surprises me that she has not yet come out of the range bleeding or with a broken thumb. I have had many cases of people coming out of my range bleeding because of this very issue: they put their thumb behind the slide, and the slide came back and got their thumb. Blood goes everywhere and I'm left to clean it up.

A few days ago a couple came to shoot at my range. When I asked the woman how she would hold the blue gun, she put her thumb behind the slide. Because her husband was prior military, I gave them the benefit of the doubt, and I instructed the woman in the right way to grip the gun.

However, when they got on the range, the woman put her thumb behind the slide and of course it got her, and her thumb bled a lot. They came out of the range and told me they had an accident. They didn't tell me they had left blood drops on the floor in my range. I had to clean that up later.

So, this matter is not at all subjective to me. It's quite a consistent pattern that shooters who put their thumb behind the slide end up bleeding, and I can't have that happening on my range.

I am shocked and baffled as to how she avoids getting slidebite. She must be removing her thumb just in time when the slide comes back.

I find that people who shoot using the cup and saucer method tend to have much less experience and safety knowledge than those who use correct methods, and therefore, these people are inherently less safe. In addition, using the cup and saucer method decreases accuracy and therefore increases damage to my range.

The majority of the negative reviews have so far been coming from newbie shooters that I didn't allow on my range because they were not safe. They get angry because they believe they have a right to get on my range and that my requirements are arbitrary or that I just made them up to make me feel good.

But the truth is that my requirements are based on my experience running a range, and are therefore based in reality.
I'm not going to get into an argument with you. Its your range and store so manage it however you want. I'm simply trying to help.

Here is a picture of my wife gripping her M&P. Just took it, for the purpose of this thread. She is left-handed. You can see her right thumb rests on top of her left.

image-1743215871.jpg

I'm simply trying to show you there are different perspectives on this. People can hold their guns differently and still be perfectly safe. Having your current specifications on how to hold the pistol is subjective and not even accurate in terms of safety. My wife is the evidence for that.

I'm not sure why you exclude military who use the cup and saucer method. If its good enough for military it isn't good enough for civilians? It seems to be an inconsistent argument.
__________________

Always have clean socks.

JW357 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
Shooters in Denver Front range area 5280 Colorado Gun Forum 5 06-05-2013 08:01 PM
Dealing with case lube aandabooks Ammunition & Reloading 8 02-14-2013 04:33 AM
Any suggestions for dealing with a bird? sputnik1988 The Club House 41 05-27-2012 04:28 AM
Dealing with flinch phonedog365 Training & Safety 13 01-22-2011 09:41 PM
VIRGINIA-- Shooters Paradise Range chmodx The Club House 5 11-27-2008 02:00 AM



Newest Threads