Most reputable school in the U.S.? - Page 3
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Most reputable school in the U.S.?

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-04-2008, 05:33 PM   #21
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 333
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts

Default

For me to spend my money on your school, first it would have to be closer to me. As I mentioned above, the roving instructors could do this for you.

Second, you would need to have more credentials on your staff than just "I was a cop for 4 years, and I went to Gunsite 20 years ago." Who you have depends on what sort of school you are looking to build, a marksmanship school or a fighting school. If you are building a marksmanship school, you just want to teach people how to use their gun, how to get quick and accurate hits, and a basic understanding of a fighter's mindset. There is a strong reliance on firearms as the only way to get defend in a life-or-death encounter. Examples of this, in my opinion, are Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, and Frontsight. If this is the kind of school you want, try to recruit a high level IPSC shooter, an instructor from one of the aforementioned schools, or a Special Forces and/or SWAT guy.

A fighting school teaches everything that the marksmanship school does, but in one day, instead of the several day classes that the marksmanship school does. The second day is related to actually fighting with the firearm. Other topics include force-on-force, hand-to-hand, knife work, close range firearm work, and integrating all of those together. These schools tend to break away from the concept that the firearm is the weapon, but rather the person holding it is the weapon, and the firearm is merely an extension Examples of this sort of "school" would be Tactical Response, Suarez International and ICE (Rob Pincus's new company after he left Valhalla). If this is the kind of school you want, try to recruit someone from one of the other schools, get a martial artist involved with you, get a very experienced patrol officer (not necessarily a SWAT guy; patrol officers need to use a much wider variety of tools; SWAT guys are great with firearms, but when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail), from a major metropolitan area with a well-known high crime rate (NY, LA, Chicago), or a former Spetsnaz or Delta guy.

Third, for what schools to attend yourself, any of the above-mentioned schools (Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, FrontSight, Tactical Response, Suarez International, ICE), with the addition of the GLOCK Instructor's Workshop, the Sig Academy, BlackWater, Morrigan Consulting, and a high-quality long-range marksmanship school. Decide which method you like best, spend enough time shooting with each of those guys to become an instructor with them, and then start hanging out your shingle.

__________________
ranger_sxt is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 06:11 PM   #22
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger_sxt View Post
I have. It was more similar to the second one, but driven from a laptop.

But the best training I have come across thus far would have to be doing it with Airsoft, Real Action Markers, or Simunitions.
I'm unfamiliar with those, and will do my research.
I think they can be a really effective device, although I'm sure they aint cheap.

So far as the rest of your posts go, I will try and answer what I can.

One, I dont remember mentioning that I was "God's right hand" or some such. I was a good shot though, and I had some pretty good training.
I would say your statement is a bit of an exaggeration.

I understand that if the hobbyist misses it is different from a real situation where you may be killed. Everyone understands that. Nobody is disputing that, and if you think I said anything of the sort, please use the quote option and show me.
However, what differs in the training for military or law enforcement as opposed to training that any civilian can get at one of these many schools offered across this great land of ours?

So far, after two pages of this, nobody has said boo about that.

Wonder why? I know why...because there IS no difference.

Let me ask you this....
Why bother training our military/ law enforcement at all? Why spend millions of tax payers dollars on the schools and the ammo and everything else?

Because if you do not train, then you will have problems when the SHTF and you or your partners life is in danger.
Right?

So, if I can access the SAME training (advanced tactical ANYTHING) as that of a SEAL or whoever...then what is the difference?
The fact that they might have actually been in a fire fight?

Okay, now lets analyze that for a second....

We will take two imaginary instructors.
One is an ex-SEAL team member who has been to X, Y, and Z schools AND has actually been in a fire fight or two. Heck, lets even say he has been wounded in those fire fights....
Second is a joe blow citizen who has also been to X, Y, and Z schools BUT has never been in an actual fire fight.

Now, tell me exactly HOW the two instructors will differ in their teachings?

Will the SEAL get into describing how you will "feel" when being shot at? Or will he describe what will happen to your body when the adrenaline hits and how this will affect your shooting? Or something else?

Now, think about this....
Have the tactical/survival schools been teaching this for decades? Teaching how you will "feel" during a skirmish and teaching about mindset and focus? Then, going out to the range and simulating real life scenario's to get you to act, think, shoot in those types of situations? Why do you think they have you shoot while moving, out of breath, confused, at night, weak handed, etc..?

Isnt what we are all looking for at these schools is instruction on PROVEN tactics and practice in REAL WORLD type situations?

I'm sorry, but you do NOT have to have been in a bloody gun battle to know what proper tactics are. No more so than you need to be set on fire to know that you STOP, DROP, and ROLL

And yes, the military is smart to use people like Leatham to train personnel on shooting technique.

Yet, Leatham was never in the military or law enforcement...how strange...

Listen, the video I posted before was supposed to be the BEST SWAT teams from all over the world.
Are you telling me there is no possible way a civilian like myself could score right at the average score for that competition?

By the way, I'm not an IPSC grand master and my name is there for all to see. And so far a certain "standard" that military/law enforcement have met...I think you may be overestimating this standard.

Are you ex-military? My dad is a marine (no ex-marines) and I know the kind of training he went through. More long distance rifle than anything. If so, what kind of handgun training did you receive?
I'm ex-law enforcement, and can say that the "standard" for both pistol and shotgun in the academy are really quite low. SWAT standards are higher, but not a "high" standard in my opinion. And I have shot against many SWAT members. Back in 97, I think it was, I participated in the combat handgun comp at the Florida police olympics...and there were SWAT from dept's all over the state there.

Do you know what the hit percentage is for cops in gunfights?
Pretty damn horrible.


One last thought for you....
Did you know that tactical training is much a matter of OPINION? Schools will vary with their technique and teaching methods. There is NO STANDARD of tactical training that I know of.
So, who do you trust? Could it be that the war-scarred SEAL we spoke of earlier was only exposed to certain types of situations and was just lucky? Did he experience ALL of the millions of variables that could occur in a skirmish?
I think not
__________________

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

mattbatson is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 06:17 PM   #23
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger_sxt View Post
For me to spend my money on your school, first it would have to be closer to me. As I mentioned above, the roving instructors could do this for you.

Second, you would need to have more credentials on your staff than just "I was a cop for 4 years, and I went to Gunsite 20 years ago." Who you have depends on what sort of school you are looking to build, a marksmanship school or a fighting school. If you are building a marksmanship school, you just want to teach people how to use their gun, how to get quick and accurate hits, and a basic understanding of a fighter's mindset. There is a strong reliance on firearms as the only way to get defend in a life-or-death encounter. Examples of this, in my opinion, are Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, and Frontsight. If this is the kind of school you want, try to recruit a high level IPSC shooter, an instructor from one of the aforementioned schools, or a Special Forces and/or SWAT guy.

A fighting school teaches everything that the marksmanship school does, but in one day, instead of the several day classes that the marksmanship school does. The second day is related to actually fighting with the firearm. Other topics include force-on-force, hand-to-hand, knife work, close range firearm work, and integrating all of those together. These schools tend to break away from the concept that the firearm is the weapon, but rather the person holding it is the weapon, and the firearm is merely an extension Examples of this sort of "school" would be Tactical Response, Suarez International and ICE (Rob Pincus's new company after he left Valhalla). If this is the kind of school you want, try to recruit someone from one of the other schools, get a martial artist involved with you, get a very experienced patrol officer (not necessarily a SWAT guy; patrol officers need to use a much wider variety of tools; SWAT guys are great with firearms, but when your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail), from a major metropolitan area with a well-known high crime rate (NY, LA, Chicago), or a former Spetsnaz or Delta guy.

Third, for what schools to attend yourself, any of the above-mentioned schools (Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, FrontSight, Tactical Response, Suarez International, ICE), with the addition of the GLOCK Instructor's Workshop, the Sig Academy, BlackWater, Morrigan Consulting, and a high-quality long-range marksmanship school. Decide which method you like best, spend enough time shooting with each of those guys to become an instructor with them, and then start hanging out your shingle.
sorry posted my last before seeing this one....

Excellent. Thank you much, as that was the kind of opinions I am looking for.
This is kind of what I was already suspecting and planning for. This is why I knew it would take a few years to get to the point of top flight tactical training (perhaps more, who knows).

I hope Dilinger and others are not turned of from me on this board. I'm truly a nice guy and would suspect we would be friends if meeting off of the this board.
I know I have much to learn, and this is why I post on this board. Sorry if I came off as a blowhard, but I felt my experience needed to be explained for the purpose of this discussion.
We always fight with our ego's...sometimes they need to be reined in more often than not

To dilinger and others on here, again...I apologize. I think once you get to know me, we will get along fine.
__________________

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...


Last edited by mattbatson; 12-04-2008 at 06:47 PM.
mattbatson is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 08:17 PM   #24
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 333
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
One, I dont remember mentioning that I was "God's right hand" or some such. I was a good shot though, and I had some pretty good training.
I would say your statement is a bit of an exaggeration.
I know it was an exaggeration. But you must admit, that given the anonymity on internet, those claims are rather ridiculous. For all we know, you could be a 14 year old kid who plays Counter-Strike a lot and is trying to show his friends how cool he is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
I understand that if the hobbyist misses it is different from a real situation where you may be killed. Everyone understands that. Nobody is disputing that, and if you think I said anything of the sort, please use the quote option and show me.
No, you didn't. But you were asking the difference between an hobbyist and a professional (although I used that term). That is the difference. If the hobbyist misses, he gets another chance. If the professional misses, at best, he doesn't get paid as much, at worst, he gets deaded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
However, what differs in the training for military or law enforcement as opposed to training that any civilian can get at one of these many schools offered across this great land of ours?

So far, after two pages of this, nobody has said boo about that.

Wonder why? I know why...because there IS no difference.
You're right, there isn't much. The difference is the amount of practice that the top tier military people get. One report has Delta shooting over 2,000 rounds a day, for weeks at a time. Eric Haney said they shot so often at one time, that their hands started to be worn raw from the slide. I do not have the money to do that, and I can think of no one that does. That is the difference between the military training and civilian training.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
Let me ask you this....
Why bother training our military/ law enforcement at all? Why spend millions of tax payers dollars on the schools and the ammo and everything else?

Because if you do not train, then you will have problems when the SHTF and you or your partners life is in danger.
Right?

So, if I can access the SAME training (advanced tactical ANYTHING) as that of a SEAL or whoever...then what is the difference?
The fact that they might have actually been in a fire fight?

Okay, now lets analyze that for a second....

We will take two imaginary instructors.
One is an ex-SEAL team member who has been to X, Y, and Z schools AND has actually been in a fire fight or two. Heck, lets even say he has been wounded in those fire fights....
Second is a joe blow citizen who has also been to X, Y, and Z schools BUT has never been in an actual fire fight.

Now, tell me exactly HOW the two instructors will differ in their teachings?

Will the SEAL get into describing how you will "feel" when being shot at? Or will he describe what will happen to your body when the adrenaline hits and how this will affect your shooting? Or something else?
That's one element. The other major point that having been in a firefight brings up is credibility. Either your SeAL instructor is saying that “The stuff that I was taught worked very well for me. Now I'm going to share it with you,” or “The stuff they taught me when I was a SeAL is absolute crap and got me shot up. What I'm teaching you here is much better, and if I had known it, I wouldn't have gotten shot.”

The same thing could be said for the civilian who is a high-ranked competitive shooter. His using and endorsing a certain style of shooting in competition is saying that “This worked well enough for me in competition that I made it to be a Grand-High-Master.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
Now, think about this....
Have the tactical/survival schools been teaching this for decades? Teaching how you will "feel" during a skirmish and teaching about mindset and focus? Then, going out to the range and simulating real life scenario's to get you to act, think, shoot in those types of situations? Why do you think they have you shoot while moving, out of breath, confused, at night, weak handed, etc..?

Isnt what we are all looking for at these schools is instruction on PROVEN tactics and practice in REAL WORLD type situations?

I'm sorry, but you do NOT have to have been in a bloody gun battle to know what proper tactics are. No more so than you need to be set on fire to know that you STOP, DROP, and ROLL
Let me make one thing clear: for the majority of this, I'm playing devil's advocate. I have no problem taking a class from someone who has no combat experience, or even from someone who has no competitive experience, as long as the information they are putting out is solid; if they are putting out information or tactics that are different than others, I will dismiss them. Others won't do that.

Yes, we have been knowing what happens when someone gets into the **** for a long time. The problem still comes with credibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
And yes, the military is smart to use people like Leatham to train personnel on shooting technique.

Yet, Leatham was never in the military or law enforcement...how strange...
But Leatham was shooting for his supper, so to speak. If he sucked too badly, he would have started to lose matches, which would have led to him dropping in standings, which would have led to him losing sponsorships, which would mean that he would have to go get a real job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
Listen, the video I posted before was supposed to be the BEST SWAT teams from all over the world.
Are you telling me there is no possible way a civilian like myself could score right at the average score for that competition?
I am not, and will never, say that. In my post after this, I said to get people from one of the larger metropolitan police departments for a reason. Either they have been in more situations than someone from a smaller department, or, they had to strive harder to get into their position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
By the way, I'm not an IPSC grand master and my name is there for all to see. And so far a certain "standard" that military/law enforcement have met...I think you may be overestimating this standard.

Are you ex-military? My dad is a marine (no ex-marines) and I know the kind of training he went through. More long distance rifle than anything. If so, what kind of handgun training did you receive?
I'm ex-law enforcement, and can say that the "standard" for both pistol and shotgun in the academy are really quite low. SWAT standards are higher, but not a "high" standard in my opinion. And I have shot against many SWAT members. Back in 97, I think it was, I participated in the combat handgun comp at the Florida police olympics...and there were SWAT from dept's all over the state there.
The IPSC grand master thing was aimed at an argument I had on another forum, where someone wanted to charge $60 an hour to learn from him, but he wouldn't tell anyone who he was, or why he was qualified. If we wanted to know that, we would have to pay him.

I know the military standards out there. I regularly exceeded the military standards when I was in. I knew several people who did. I had no handgun instruction whatsoever, but still qualified expert. So did everyone who shot with me that day. I know the standard for pistol and patrol carbine for Arizona (being that's where I'm from). I can exceed both standards. I don't know the shotgun, because I don't like them.

While I understand your point, it still means something to a lot of people. Even though the standard isn't that high, it's still there. If someone can't make it to one of those standards, and are trying to teach, they are dumber than a box of rocks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbatson View Post
One last thought for you....
Did you know that tactical training is much a matter of OPINION? Schools will vary with their technique and teaching methods. There is NO STANDARD of tactical training that I know of.
So, who do you trust? Could it be that the war-scarred SEAL we spoke of earlier was only exposed to certain types of situations and was just lucky? Did he experience ALL of the millions of variables that could occur in a skirmish?
I think not
You are correct. It is mostly a matter of opinion (somethings never fail, like “don't die,” “shoot the other guy,”). But I would be more inclined to take the advice of someone who has been in the ****, either directly or indirectly, than someone who has spent nothing but time on the range, shooting. Could the other guy think of every situation?
__________________
ranger_sxt is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 08:19 PM   #25
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Okay, first and foremost anything - I don't have a problem with you. If you go back, I think I was the second to post in this thread about what I thought a good business model would be. * NOTE* Kudos to Ranger_sxt for coming up with a good counterpoint to my business plan - but my point was more, it's hard to bring State of the Art to a range near you.

I hope you do go all out and build yourself one hell of a good training center. The more "trained" people with firearms is a good thing in my opinion. I'll probably attend because I intend on visiting all of them before I pass on to the Halls of Valhalla.

Where we ran into a problem was when you started talking about holding your own against a possible SeAL team that you were shooting alongside.

Take a look through my posts, you will see that I am not on here huffing and puffing about being the best at anything, quite the contrary. But, I have a habit of examining what is said and calling BS when Internetz Mythos gets out of hand.

I took umbridge with that statement, only because I have personally shot with both SeALs, Rangers and with World Record Holders ( like Don Rose Benchrest 600 and 1,000 title holder who shoots at Eatonville Rifle Club ). I know what those REAL guys can do behind a trigger. I asked for proof, but as it was 20 years ago - well, there we have a bit of a rub.

Now, onto the Leatham issue. My point is this, taking shooting direction from a guy like Rob is fine. Encouraged! If you can get that guy to teach you 1/10,000th of what he knows, you will be better for it. However, he is not a combat shooter. He is not proven in Combat Tactics. His targets don't shoot back. So using someone like him to train a unit that will be dealing with "hostile" targets is preparing to fail.

No offense to Rob at all, I consider the guy one of the best pistol shooters in the world, but he doesn't have, or hasn't made public, that he trained to kick in doors and take out bad guys.

Tactics versus Disciplines is what these two pages have boiled down to.

Now, for your side of the debate, you are wanting to hear, presumably, this:

Yes, if a normal citizen, with zero weapons/military/tactics training spent all day, 5 or 6 days a week, for a couple of years, in a training system that mimics real world situations, puts s/he into high stress environments and teaches them the same skills that the military uses - would they be effective? Yes. No question.

But, therein lies the rub. Going to Gunsite or Valhalla or Thunder Ranch or anywhere else for a FULL week, and then waiting ( what would be generous given the costs of those places and vacation time / normal workload for a day job ) another 6 months ( ?? ) to go back, but trying to train yourself at home with what you remember learning isn't the same bloody thing. It isn't even in the same league.

Look, I have trained MMA for years. Always loved the sport, had a dream of some day competing in Japan - Prior to the UFC that is today. I have rolled with guys who were taught MMA by guys like Frank Shamrock and Maurice Smith at The Alliance in Bellevue, Washington back in the day. I still take a once a week class in MMA to get together, "practice" and fight off the expansion of my midsection. I watch, probably, 10 hours of fighting a week and I can "usually" pick who is going to win a fight merely by who they have fought and what discipline they have coming in. I would consider myself an above average MMA enthusiast. For me to even have the NOTION that I could take a last minute replacement fight for even one of the local fight cards and actually win against guys who do this for a living?? I would get my clock cleaned and probably look like JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy in the process.

Why? Because I don't train at the same level of discipline. Going once a week isn't the same as running two a days, six days a week, and having three coaches for cardio, standup and ground fighting.

It's the same thing for civilians going to "X" combat/pistol/rifle training camp. When they leave, they are better than when they got there, hopefully, but are they as good in 6 months? A year?

How many civilians that went through Advanced Long Range Tactical Shooting ( Sniper School in disguise ) at one of these places would you want taking THE shot, through a medium like glass, on a subject that has your wife with his pistol in her mouth, say a year after "gradutation" and receiving their faux hogs tooth? Honestly. Ask yourself that and think about the ramifications for a minute.

You can open a school with the "best of intentions" to give people all the tools to deal with those types of situations, but since they aren't doing it everyday, or even every other day, they will never reach the level of Mastery that someone from a real "Team" does. It just doesn't work that way I am afraid.

Last question - then I may be done with this thread as I have others to look after on gun purchases ( my favorite threads )

You are going to be attacked in an ambush, 3 on 2, sometime in the next 48 hours while on business in a city not known to you. Your traveling partner can be:

1) Rob Leatham
2) Larry Vickers
3) Eric Lee Haney

Whom do you choose to shadow you for the next 2 days and why?

JD

__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 08:53 PM   #26
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger_sxt View Post
I know it was an exaggeration. But you must admit, that given the anonymity on internet, those claims are rather ridiculous. For all we know, you could be a 14 year old kid who plays Counter-Strike a lot and is trying to show his friends how cool he is.



No, you didn't. But you were asking the difference between an hobbyist and a professional (although I used that term). That is the difference. If the hobbyist misses, he gets another chance. If the professional misses, at best, he doesn't get paid as much, at worst, he gets deaded.



You're right, there isn't much. The difference is the amount of practice that the top tier military people get. One report has Delta shooting over 2,000 rounds a day, for weeks at a time. Eric Haney said they shot so often at one time, that their hands started to be worn raw from the slide. I do not have the money to do that, and I can think of no one that does. That is the difference between the military training and civilian training.



That's one element. The other major point that having been in a firefight brings up is credibility. Either your SeAL instructor is saying that “The stuff that I was taught worked very well for me. Now I'm going to share it with you,” or “The stuff they taught me when I was a SeAL is absolute crap and got me shot up. What I'm teaching you here is much better, and if I had known it, I wouldn't have gotten shot.”

The same thing could be said for the civilian who is a high-ranked competitive shooter. His using and endorsing a certain style of shooting in competition is saying that “This worked well enough for me in competition that I made it to be a Grand-High-Master.”



Let me make one thing clear: for the majority of this, I'm playing devil's advocate. I have no problem taking a class from someone who has no combat experience, or even from someone who has no competitive experience, as long as the information they are putting out is solid; if they are putting out information or tactics that are different than others, I will dismiss them. Others won't do that.

Yes, we have been knowing what happens when someone gets into the **** for a long time. The problem still comes with credibility.



But Leatham was shooting for his supper, so to speak. If he sucked too badly, he would have started to lose matches, which would have led to him dropping in standings, which would have led to him losing sponsorships, which would mean that he would have to go get a real job.



I am not, and will never, say that. In my post after this, I said to get people from one of the larger metropolitan police departments for a reason. Either they have been in more situations than someone from a smaller department, or, they had to strive harder to get into their position.



The IPSC grand master thing was aimed at an argument I had on another forum, where someone wanted to charge $60 an hour to learn from him, but he wouldn't tell anyone who he was, or why he was qualified. If we wanted to know that, we would have to pay him.

I know the military standards out there. I regularly exceeded the military standards when I was in. I knew several people who did. I had no handgun instruction whatsoever, but still qualified expert. So did everyone who shot with me that day. I know the standard for pistol and patrol carbine for Arizona (being that's where I'm from). I can exceed both standards. I don't know the shotgun, because I don't like them.

While I understand your point, it still means something to a lot of people. Even though the standard isn't that high, it's still there. If someone can't make it to one of those standards, and are trying to teach, they are dumber than a box of rocks.



You are correct. It is mostly a matter of opinion (somethings never fail, like “don't die,” “shoot the other guy,”). But I would be more inclined to take the advice of someone who has been in the ****, either directly or indirectly, than someone who has spent nothing but time on the range, shooting. Could the other guy think of every situation?
I think we agree on pretty much everything. Sorry it got off on the wrong foot.
I completely understand where you are coming from and agree with most if not all.
thanks for all the advice/opinions on a training facility.
__________________

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

mattbatson is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 09:10 PM   #27
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 333
Liked 3 Times on 2 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Now, onto the Leatham issue. My point is this, taking shooting direction from a guy like Rob is fine. Encouraged! If you can get that guy to teach you 1/10,000th of what he knows, you will be better for it. However, he is not a combat shooter. He is not proven in Combat Tactics. His targets don't shoot back. So using someone like him to train a unit that will be dealing with "hostile" targets is preparing to fail.
Leatham and Enos were both hired by Delta Force in the mid-80s to teach them, after they started winning handily in IPSC. Benny Cooley regularly teaches at military posts, and his primary qualifications are his expertise in competition (not belittling his role as a police officer in the slightest). Competition shooters teach how to shoot. But they cannot teach how to fight...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Last question - then I may be done with this thread as I have others to look after on gun purchases ( my favorite threads )

You are going to be attacked in an ambush, 3 on 2, sometime in the next 48 hours while on business in a city not known to you. Your traveling partner can be:

1) Rob Leatham
2) Larry Vickers
3) Eric Lee Haney

Whom do you choose to shadow you for the next 2 days and why?

JD
Vickers.
__________________
ranger_sxt is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 09:24 PM   #28
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 33
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dillinger View Post
Okay, first and foremost anything - I don't have a problem with you. If you go back, I think I was the second to post in this thread about what I thought a good business model would be. * NOTE* Kudos to Ranger_sxt for coming up with a good counterpoint to my business plan - but my point was more, it's hard to bring State of the Art to a range near you.

I hope you do go all out and build yourself one hell of a good training center. The more "trained" people with firearms is a good thing in my opinion. I'll probably attend because I intend on visiting all of them before I pass on to the Halls of Valhalla.

Where we ran into a problem was when you started talking about holding your own against a possible SeAL team that you were shooting alongside.

Take a look through my posts, you will see that I am not on here huffing and puffing about being the best at anything, quite the contrary. But, I have a habit of examining what is said and calling BS when Internetz Mythos gets out of hand.

I took umbridge with that statement, only because I have personally shot with both SeALs, Rangers and with World Record Holders ( like Don Rose Benchrest 600 and 1,000 title holder who shoots at Eatonville Rifle Club ). I know what those REAL guys can do behind a trigger. I asked for proof, but as it was 20 years ago - well, there we have a bit of a rub.

Now, onto the Leatham issue. My point is this, taking shooting direction from a guy like Rob is fine. Encouraged! If you can get that guy to teach you 1/10,000th of what he knows, you will be better for it. However, he is not a combat shooter. He is not proven in Combat Tactics. His targets don't shoot back. So using someone like him to train a unit that will be dealing with "hostile" targets is preparing to fail.

No offense to Rob at all, I consider the guy one of the best pistol shooters in the world, but he doesn't have, or hasn't made public, that he trained to kick in doors and take out bad guys.

Tactics versus Disciplines is what these two pages have boiled down to.

Now, for your side of the debate, you are wanting to hear, presumably, this:

Yes, if a normal citizen, with zero weapons/military/tactics training spent all day, 5 or 6 days a week, for a couple of years, in a training system that mimics real world situations, puts s/he into high stress environments and teaches them the same skills that the military uses - would they be effective? Yes. No question.

But, therein lies the rub. Going to Gunsite or Valhalla or Thunder Ranch or anywhere else for a FULL week, and then waiting ( what would be generous given the costs of those places and vacation time / normal workload for a day job ) another 6 months ( ?? ) to go back, but trying to train yourself at home with what you remember learning isn't the same bloody thing. It isn't even in the same league.

Look, I have trained MMA for years. Always loved the sport, had a dream of some day competing in Japan - Prior to the UFC that is today. I have rolled with guys who were taught MMA by guys like Frank Shamrock and Maurice Smith at The Alliance in Bellevue, Washington back in the day. I still take a once a week class in MMA to get together, "practice" and fight off the expansion of my midsection. I watch, probably, 10 hours of fighting a week and I can "usually" pick who is going to win a fight merely by who they have fought and what discipline they have coming in. I would consider myself an above average MMA enthusiast. For me to even have the NOTION that I could take a last minute replacement fight for even one of the local fight cards and actually win against guys who do this for a living?? I would get my clock cleaned and probably look like JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy in the process.

Why? Because I don't train at the same level of discipline. Going once a week isn't the same as running two a days, six days a week, and having three coaches for cardio, standup and ground fighting.

It's the same thing for civilians going to "X" combat/pistol/rifle training camp. When they leave, they are better than when they got there, hopefully, but are they as good in 6 months? A year?

How many civilians that went through Advanced Long Range Tactical Shooting ( Sniper School in disguise ) at one of these places would you want taking THE shot, through a medium like glass, on a subject that has your wife with his pistol in her mouth, say a year after "gradutation" and receiving their faux hogs tooth? Honestly. Ask yourself that and think about the ramifications for a minute.

You can open a school with the "best of intentions" to give people all the tools to deal with those types of situations, but since they aren't doing it everyday, or even every other day, they will never reach the level of Mastery that someone from a real "Team" does. It just doesn't work that way I am afraid.

Last question - then I may be done with this thread as I have others to look after on gun purchases ( my favorite threads )

You are going to be attacked in an ambush, 3 on 2, sometime in the next 48 hours while on business in a city not known to you. Your traveling partner can be:

1) Rob Leatham
2) Larry Vickers
3) Eric Lee Haney

Whom do you choose to shadow you for the next 2 days and why?

JD
sorry I dont have the multi quote thing down yet...

Listen, I agree with much of what you say.

On your last question, does Leatham have a "recoil friendly" competition load 9mm or a factory load 45?

With regards to long distance rifle shooting, I do know what you mean...some of those guys are pretty amazing.
Now, to be fair, I have a buddy who has no military/law enforcement experience and is a member of the outdoor range at Port Malabar, FL where they have a 600 yard lane. He competes regularly in the "gadget free" class (sorry, I'm not up on rifle comps), so he isnt using the shooting jacket, super high power scopes (I think his is a 3-9 magnif.), or even a fancy rifle. He shoots a 308 that doesnt even have a full floating stock, and he does really well. He is getting some amazingly small groups.
He loves the sport and it really appeals to his obsessive/compulsive tendencies for exactness and precision

He is also a very good pistol shot.

Now, he actually does shoot every weekend, almost without fail, reloads his own ammo, and spends all his extra money on the sport.

He doesnt shoot 2000 rounds a week, but he does shoot often enough to keep his skills fine tuned.
I dont know that it is necessary to shoot even 300 rounds a week to keep on top of your game.
A lot of my training back in the day was dry fire work (holster draw, reloading, tactical reloading, moving and shooting, different positions, etc..).

Also, dont get me wrong, but I had a pretty damn good foundation underneath me before going to Gunsite. Just about the only thing I experienced for the first time was the funhouse and night shooting (although I had practiced with the flashlight in the daytime). I dont really think the school had a significant affect on my skill level to tell you the truth.

So, I dont know how important it is to attend a school more frequently than twice a year. I still to this day remember most of what I was taught in that class, and can replicate the training on my own.

One more thing to consider is, that everyone is NOT created equally (no, I'm not saying I'm better than you or others on here). There is some amount of natural ability/talent to shooting.

For the last 5 years I have been racing cars with the SCCA here in the southeast (which is probably why I have not been shooting much, as they are both expensive sports). Racing cars involves much of the same mental factors as shooting in combat situations.
What I mean by that is that you need to be able to focus and react PROPERLY even when the car is sliding towards the edge of track and a concrete wall. It is kind of a controlled agression with lots of focus.
There are some people in auto racing who are naturally talented and fast right out of the box.
Many of these people can only race once or twice a year, and still either win or get into the top three every time.

Okay, all that said, I completely understand where you are coming from and agree with much of it.
I'm just giving you some counterpoint.
I do appreciate all the advice and opinions.
I've actually looked up the ICE organization and found they are having an event here in titusville in late january.
I think I may attend.

I also have to go as my favorite movie is coming on the AMC channel...Heartbreak ridge
__________________

My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know that it is the hits that count. We will hit...

mattbatson is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2008, 09:29 PM   #29
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: I see you, and you will not know when I will strike
Posts: 24,301
Liked 3479 Times on 1609 Posts
Likes Given: 3590

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger_sxt View Post

Vickers.
Yeah. Me too. Haney would be my second choice if Larry was busy though...
__________________
Dillinger is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 12-05-2008, 03:47 AM   #30
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 114
Default

Ok, I'll add my .02 Pesos. First off, great shooter =/= great teacher/instructor and vice versa.

I'm fairly good at passing on information as presented to me. I can demonstrate with what Rob Pincus calls 'combat accuracy'. Am I a great competitor? Nope.

Having said that, in addition to the training I already have, I'd want to train with:

Larry Vickers
Magpul Dynamics
Kyle Lamb
Dan Flowers of Ballistic Edge

And maybe a couple of others. Magpul does a lot in Florida by the way.

__________________
KellyTTE is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
School Firearm Project APPROVED bugnut DIY Projects 3 08-26-2009 10:19 PM
Very patriotic song done by school children Darth AkSarBen The Club House 0 11-15-2008 03:24 AM
School me on the AR charlescarr51 AR-15 Discussion 5 07-31-2008 06:36 PM
School suspends boy for sketching gun bkt Legal and Activism 17 08-27-2007 02:02 PM