Mo. Man at CPL class shoots self/dies - Page 2
You are Unregistered, please register to use all of the features of FirearmsTalk.com!    
Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Mo. Man at CPL class shoots self/dies

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-17-2011, 06:05 AM   #11
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
gruntpain1775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: butler township,Arkansas
Posts: 94
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by M14sRock View Post
We do not know the extent of this CCW class, or the experience level of the shooters attending. You are assuming that the students were inexperienced, and are making judgments based on that assumption. I think it is irresponsible to criticize the methodology of the class without knowing the details.

At the end of the day, you may be right. But, based upon the information in that news story, there is not enough information to make accusations about the quality and level of instruction.

First, let me say that I'm not trying to be a jerk and argue my point as absolute. I'm not, I do like a healthy debate though! And I realize I'm the "new guy" here and my last intention is to anger folks here or irk folks. Just want to make that known. I don't know the dynamics here so I don't want to overstep my bounds here.I'm just giving my opinion, and according to my wife that's just something I can keep to myself

As for the conversation here, your right. We don't don't the level of training here that the folks on the range that day had.

What we do know is what is required for the class. It must teach safe handling, cleaning and storage of a firearm and show proficiency by firing 50 rounds and shooting 20 rounds of record fire at a target.

If that is all that is required, then why add more? Sure, you can go above an beyond, but I would argue that you would need to bill the course as such and let it be known that it may not be the course for someone who isn't proficient at the basics.

And if that is what he did, then fine. The shooter should have known his limitations and practiced more maybe. The instructor should have mitigated the risk better, We could go on and on. Yes it's monday morning QBing, but it's also an opportunity to learn from an After Action Review on the training. Learn from mistakes.

Now, in the Instructors defense, the Sheriff OKed the training as required by law. This is something he should have thought about longer. Probably not a good idea. Seasoned shooters have a hard time drawing and firing from their weak side, and you want possible new comers to do it? Bad idea.

Anyway, That's my opinion on the matter. I would like to know how manipulating a safety (with either hand) gets a gun turned almost 180 degrees so you shoot yourself in the chest. Then again, older gent, could have had arthritis or something...which goes back to my argument about level of training and skill.
__________________
You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass- Trooper M. Padgett
gruntpain1775 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 09:03 AM   #12
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,152
Liked 26 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntpain1775 View Post
First, let me say that I'm not trying to be a jerk and argue my point as absolute. I'm not, I do like a healthy debate though! And I realize I'm the "new guy" here and my last intention is to anger folks here or irk folks. Just want to make that known. I don't know the dynamics here so I don't want to overstep my bounds here.I'm just giving my opinion, and according to my wife that's just something I can keep to myself.
Really Grunt, I always knew you to be a meek and quiet fella.

As GA doesn't have a training requirement, I've never been to a CCW class. This being said, I'm going to agree with Grunt that weak hand drawing/firing seems a tad over the top to me. I've been toying with getting my non-resident SC permit so I've looked into the training requirements. The class just covers the basics of the law, safe gun handling, and very basic marksmanship. Seems to me that these classes, to be safe, have to focus on the lowest common denominator - which will likely be someone with very limited experience.

My 2 cents - worth everything you paid for it...
NGIB is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 09:24 AM   #13
Jay
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Jay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Near Marion, IN
Posts: 736
Liked 19 Times on 13 Posts
Likes Given: 1

Default

Thee should have been NO live ammunition anywhere close, until manual dexterity, and gun-handling proficiency was proven.
__________________
NRA Life Member ... Marine Corps League Life Member
Freedom has a flavor the protected can never taste...
USMC 8652, 2531, RVN Jun '67, - May 69

Some of my toys
Jay is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 01:06 PM   #14
Lifetime Supporting Member
FTF_LIFETIMESUPPORTER.png
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
7point62's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Decisive Terrain
Posts: 2,100
Liked 1447 Times on 731 Posts
Likes Given: 1062

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
Thee should have been NO live ammunition anywhere close, until manual dexterity, and gun-handling proficiency was proven.

Amen, snap em in for a week and crawl right up their ass if they so much as blink wrong. There are too many stupid goobers out there with CCLs which tells me that there are too many so-called "instructors" who are herding any misfit they can find through classes just to make a buck. I'm not commenting on this particular case but I know for a fact this is happening...and I also know for a fact that I could instruct the snot out of half the freakin people out there who claim to be instructors. Some of these clowns I wouldn't trust with a sharp stick. Just sayin.
__________________
Hijo de mala leche
7point62 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 01:27 PM   #15
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: wyoming
Posts: 1,799
Liked 61 Times on 55 Posts
Likes Given: 15

Default

Grunt is correct. I have been an NRA Certified civilian and police handgun Inst. for a long time. Why was the Inst. using advanced combat training in a CCL class? We offer advanced certified combat Trng. to civilians only after they pass some very strict rules. I fear this Inst. is in trouble. The insurance coverage which Inst. carry is very tight on what they pay for.

DK
Durangokid is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 03:12 PM   #16
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Colossal Urprising's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Sedalia,MO
Posts: 135
Default

The drawing options should have been restricted to a CCW Tactics class, not a basic CCW class. I am a mo resident and went through the CCW class. The instructor obviously wanted to be the cool teacher, not the teacher he should have been.
__________________
Lifetime NRA Member
Paul Harris Fellow - 3 Diamond Level
Colossal Urprising is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 03:35 PM   #17
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lima,Ohio
Posts: 3,319
Liked 3110 Times on 1402 Posts
Likes Given: 2890

Default

Maybe we should outlaw ccw classes. Seems like they are dangerous. If a guy made it to the range he was told before hand not to point a gun at himself. Don't blame the instructor just because this guy couldn't follow instructions. At 63 years of age he should have known better without anyone telling him. It's just typical of Americans today wanting to blame everyone but the person who was at fault. Even my 8 year old grandson knows better than to point a gun at himself or anyone else. It isn't the instructors fault anymore than it's the guns fault. It's the fault of the guy who pointed the gun at himself and had his finger on the trigger. Just another dumbass who is going to make it difficult for the rest of us to enjoy shooting. Let's stop playing the liberal blame game and put the blame where it really belongs.
rjd3282 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 03:39 PM   #18
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,152
Liked 26 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rjd3282 View Post
Maybe we should outlaw ccw classes. Seems like they are dangerous. If a guy made it to the range he was told before hand not to point a gun at himself. Don't blame the instructor just because this guy couldn't follow instructions. At 63 years of age he should have known better without anyone telling him. It's just typical of Americans today wanting to blame everyone but the person who was at fault. Even my 8 year old grandson knows better than to point a gun at himself or anyone else. It isn't the instructors fault anymore than it's the guns fault. It's the fault of the guy who pointed the gun at himself and had his finger on the trigger. Just another dumbass who is going to make it difficult for the rest of us to enjoy shooting. Let's stop playing the liberal blame game and put the blame where it really belongs.
No blame being assigned here IMHO. The instructor was and is RESPONSIBLE for the safety of all persons in their class. Many that go to a permit class are noobs with guns so any decent instructor will make sure firearms are handled safely ALWAYS. Sure the guy screwed up - but he was not the expert - the instructor was and the liability remains with them...
NGIB is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 04:20 PM   #19
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
gruntpain1775's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: butler township,Arkansas
Posts: 94
Default

I'm the last to blame someone else. I hate that crap. However, in this case the failure was at many levels. To begin with, I don't understand how you can get a weapon turned around 180 degrees when you are flipping the safety. That's hit one, right on the guy himself. He should have been paying more attentions, acting in a more safe manner and keeping his weapon pointed down range.

That said, the Instructor had no business teaching that technique at a basic CCW class. I don't care if everyone there was a Super Special Delta Ranger Force Operator, it's a basic CCW course so that is what you teach.

Sure, the guy who died is to blame. But the Instructor shares the responsibility of the death for his course material not being appropriate.
__________________
You may find me one day dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass- Trooper M. Padgett
gruntpain1775 is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Old 03-17-2011, 04:44 PM   #20
Feedback Score: 0 reviews
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,152
Liked 26 Times on 7 Posts

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruntpain1775 View Post
Super Special Delta Ranger Force Operator
Damn, been a while since I heard that one...
NGIB is offline  
 
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Firearms Forum Replies Last Post
what happens when class 3 arms holder dies try2beholy NFA/Class 3 & FFL Discussion 9 12-12-2012 02:02 PM
Dies for 7.62 x 51 (.308) TXnorton Ammunition & Reloading 12 03-16-2010 02:50 AM
Came across some dies basstracker Ammunition & Reloading 0 09-09-2008 11:24 PM
.44-40 dies crossfire Competition Shooting 0 12-24-2007 03:12 AM



Newest Threads