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Old 01-20-2013, 02:03 PM   #11
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IMO the OP has an excellent point!
Too many look at military and SWAT as the "pros" they need to emulate.
But the stances you use w/ body armor are very different.
All Army ow wear body armor so we train very different than we used to.,its all about "presenting the plate"

Also those guys can afford more complicated training regimens that dont yield muscle memory until you shot tons of rounds.

civilian self defense training is better the less it resembles those tng approaches.

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Old 01-20-2013, 02:19 PM   #12
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I was listening to the SOFREP podcast the other day and they had on a retired Delta Master Sergeant. He was telling the story of a POW rescue in Mogadishu. At one point during the story he made a comment that really stood out to me. "Train for how you fight." Basically you can train for this and that all you want but if that's not how you'd actually fight then when the SHTF you're not going to react the way you need to. I try to practice startled reaction times because I assume that's the situation I'll be put into. If I can see it coming I have a chance to avoid it. It's the ones I don't see coming that worry me. So being able to respond smooth and fast are big concerns for me. Not the high speed low drag operator mall ninja stuff. Although that stuff is fun from time to time.

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Old 01-20-2013, 09:48 PM   #13
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well the truth of the matter is that with little or no training whatsoever the average joe/jane civilian wins armed confrontations with goblins at a steady rate of nearly 100%. if they werent the media would be all over these stories of how good guys are getting slaughtered by criminals and guns are evil.

thats not happening. the average joe/jane is routinely shooting and running off maurading thugs on a devastingly regular basis.

i believe this occurs because the average goblin is a lazy shiftless coward out to make an easy buck or get his jollies raping children. when they are confronted by deadly force they flee post haste. sometimnes they get shot sometimes not but they key to it all is the citizen putting forth armed resistance.

we see it time and again even with the mass murderers. when confronted they get shot by the average joe/jane or commit suicide on the spot. thats why the clackamas mall shooting stopped showing up in the media. ccw person confronted the shooter with deadly force shooter ran away and shot himself.

now im not saying dont worry about training you will be ok. what i am trying to get across that just having the ability to confront a goblin puts the odds waaaaay in favor from the get go. murderers robbers thugs rapists all require a disarmed populace to be successful. thats why democrats want us disarmed. cant have their constituants getting wacked can we??

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Old 01-20-2013, 11:47 PM   #14
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Quote:
well the truth of the matter is that with little or no training whatsoever the average joe/jane civilian wins armed confrontations with goblins at a steady rate of nearly 100%. if they werent the media would be all over these stories of how good guys are getting slaughtered by criminals and guns are evil.
I would love to see a source on that stat. What you're saying is that the average untrained citizen has a higher success rate than the police, and I would love to be able to quote that source to some friends of mine.
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Old 01-21-2013, 03:49 AM   #15
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I would love to see a source on that stat. What you're saying is that the average untrained citizen has a higher success rate than the police, and I would love to be able to quote that source to some friends of mine.
Actually the avg armed citizen has a better rate of not shooting the wrong perspon tahn police by about a factor of 2.5

I dont remebr the soruce but i am sure someone else will.

2-3% of hitting the wrong guy for civlians and about 11% of shooting innocents for police.

Reason is clear IMO: the citizen is already there and knows exactly who the bad guy is ,but the police has to figure things out when they get there in a hurry.
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Old 01-21-2013, 06:04 PM   #16
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I would love to see a source on that stat. What you're saying is that the average untrained citizen has a higher success rate than the police, and I would love to be able to quote that source to some friends of mine.
the difference is that the civilian isnt trying to arrest the goblin and they are required to use the least force required. police arent just being randomly attacked as a rule. when police are off duty just being a citizen they have the same success against goblins as the average joe. just recently in san antonio an off duty officer stopped a theater shooter.

you just dont see any stories about citizens pulling a gun then the bad guy grabbing it and shooting the citizen. it doesnt happen. but there are all sorts of stories about police getting shot with their own guns.

why that happens is civilians arent trying to arrest or apprehend people and arent getting into wrestling matches with goblins at traffic stops.

what typically happens is a goblin comes into a home or business tries to commit a crime civilian pulls a gun and starts shooting at the goblin who then drops right there or flees.

police pull over a car driver or passenger get out and attack the cop or the officer tries to detain a person and while trying to cuff em the wrestling starts and thats the difference. when officers are confronted the same way by a goblin that civilians are they experience nearly 100% success.

when was the last time you heard of the police getting wiped out in a straight up gun fight?? doesnt happen.

the difference is that police cant just shoot a suspect civilians can and do because their lives are at immediate risk. by the time an interaction that police are having with a suspect turns into self defense with deadly force its often during a hand to hand wrestling match.
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Old 01-22-2013, 12:03 PM   #17
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JonM

I can follow your logic, but it doesn't help me present my argument. Have you something firm to back it up? FBI, CDC, or even NRA stats would be a huge help. Heck, I would even accept stats from the Brady Bunch if they come close. Thanks

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:04 PM   #18
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but there are all sorts of stories about police getting shot with their own guns.

I guess that depends on what your definition is of "all sorts". I'm not arguing it doesn't happen, but it's less than 2-3% of deaths when looking at the 2011 FBI statistics.
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Old 01-22-2013, 01:21 PM   #19
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For me the OP point is two fold for me.

1. When considering attending a new school I do as much research as possible. Talk to past students, read AAR's, talk to the instructors, look over the instructors training background etc. If something throws up a red flag for me I spend my time and money at a different school.

2. Whenever I attend a class regardless of it's firearms, edged weapons, impact weapons, hand to hand I apply Dave Spaulding's 3 S's. 1. Does it make SENSE? 2. Is it SIMPLE? 3. Is it STREET PROVEN?

If after the class I determine it doesn't make SENSE for me I don't continue to spend time working on it or work it into my training/practice. This includes if it is a ttp more suited for military, SRT, LEO, etc.

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Old 01-22-2013, 01:39 PM   #20
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Americas libertys are traced to the armed citizen. The armed citizen moved on to the Frontiers of early America with no trained military support. It was only after they brought about a civilized government did they "Invent" police.
In Canada for example the police and military were allowed to enter the Frontiers first. Canada is of course more of a police state. The armed citizen should not be compared to a Swat member. The armed American citizen is unique in history.

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