Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Is James Yeager Correct, 9mm or .45 acp Only Good Choices For Defense Ammo?

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Old 06-25-2013, 12:25 PM   #41
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Let's have a show of hands from all those who are just bored to death by gun forum "caliber wars."

Methinks if we spent even 1/2 as much time on gun forums talking about actual shooting skills, as we do talking about equipment, that would be a good thing.

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Old 06-25-2013, 02:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
Overkill,

I was trying to indicate that while hot 9MM loads that approach the "magic" 125gr .357 Magnum at 1250 FPS (I know it can be considerably faster with longer barrels and higher pressures), with a weapon of equivalent length (not equivalent barrel length where .357 Magnum wins almost every time).
The .357 Mag "hand of god" loads are a bit of a stretch to duplicate for 9mm. .357 Sig comes closer. That's a separate discussion.

I don't typically use hot loaded 9MM because I don't think there's a great enough increase in trauma caused by the more powerful cartridges to justify the recoil and slower target re-acquisition. Every trauma surgeon I've heard speak on the subject pretty much says the same thing. Most handgun ammunition isn't all that powerful and most people survive being shot by handguns. The ones that die usually die from blood loss.
I've never carried a 9mm. Not because they suck. Not because I believe it's "Not enough gun." No, the more mundane reason that i simply don't own an appropriate 9mm pistol for CC. I rotate between a .40 S&W, a .38 special and a .45 acp. Anything worth shooting, is worth shooting more than once if need be, regardless of caliber.

Bullet setback in cartridge casings is an ammo manufacturing problem, not a problem with the pistol firing it.
It doesn't matter who is responsible for it. Double the pressure will very likely cause some sort of issue with the pistol firing it. When I carried a .40 a lot, I kept track of the OAL. Never had any problems with it.

Later generation Glock barrels do have more metal around the feed ramp area. It's not a major problem, but fully supported is still best.
Well, yeah. But sometime Best isn't part of the equation. You've got what you've got, make it work.
I like my Glock 17 Gen 4 and have no major issues with it apart from the price of decent 9MM ammo now approaching pre-stupidity .45 ACP prices.

There's no problem with 9MM, .40 S&W, 10MM, or .45 ACP, but some people become very opinionated over time. I can put more rounds on target with 9MM in a short time window vs the other calibers, which is why I choose 9MM for carry.

What he says about wear and tear seems to square with what Glock says about maintenance intervals for consumable parts, like springs, so there's probably something to it no matter how overblown the issue may be.
Shoot anything 50.000 times. It's going to need parts of some sort. Be it Glock or Gramp's old GI 1911, maintenance is the cost of doing business.

As far as Mr. Yeager's character is concerned, he's little different than many of the people I met in the military. Oh, I met a few of him in the military. They are generally more trouble than they are worth. Braggarts and know-it-alls seldom mesh well with the rest of the group.
Definitely a Type A personality. I try to focus on the message and not the messenger.
When both message & messenger seem questionable, I reserve the right to question both. I don't know if he a complete douche or if it's a persona he puts on for his tacticool activities, but he cries out to be made fun of.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:52 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsdorf View Post
Let's have a show of hands from all those who are just bored to death by gun forum "caliber wars."

Methinks if we spent even 1/2 as much time on gun forums talking about actual shooting skills, as we do talking about equipment, that would be a good thing.
That side of the coin also has merit, because smaller projectiles and or less pressure gives less recoil and faster cycle times on target. Which has more stopping power, two shots from my 10mm or three shots from my 9mm? Same holds true of the .45acp, three shots from that, better than two from the 10mm?

Most caliber threads debate 9 vs 45, this thread debates 9 and 45 against the FBI 40s.

This is my 9mm. New pistol for me. In my fifty years of gun experience, almost 30 years in the NRA, and now begging a new career as an instructor for concealed carry, I have never depended on a 9mm for protection. Many years ago, I had a Colt Pony Automatic in .380. Then went to a Star PD 45, then Glock 21, then the last twenty years, a Glock 20.

So while many of you guys have seen this beat to death, I am just getting here.
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:18 PM   #44
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Your theory is good up to a point, but there is one thing you overlooked... projectile weight. If given a choice between a 110 gr projectile at 1200 fps and a 165 gr projectile at 1200 fps I will always choose the heavier projectile. Newtons law hasn't been repealed.
Weight is a valid point, but sectional density is very important also. Lower SD will be much more likely to yield reduced, perhaps insufficient penetration.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:17 AM   #45
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years ago the 9mm had a bad rap in SD and police shootings However with the new crop of defensive loads out there the 9mm is a viable round as is the 357Sig, .40 and 45. Personally I do not shoot Glocks as I prefer Sigs having a 220 .45, 226 .40/357Sig and a 228 9mm. The 226 357Sig is my primary carry weapon.
However the one shooting I was involved in the 110gr Federal +P+ 38 special performed flawlessly and put the subject trying to kill me with one well placed shot. Slug provided by coroners office.




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Old 06-26-2013, 04:22 AM   #46
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The 9mm 147 grain and the .40 S&W 180 grain are about 925 fps in a 3" barrel. The 40 is going to have more energy and cause more damage. It is a matter of how much recoil you want to handle. The 9mm will be more controllable and have more rounds in the same size and weight pistol. I too can shoot the 9mm accurately faster than the larger calibers. There are no degrees of dead. If the 9mm is capable of doing the job, I will stick with it for the better control.
Armsmaster: I usually keep 110 grain 357 mags in my SP101 2". Much easier to control than the 125's and 158's.

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:38 AM   #47
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I always tell the people to carry the biggest caliber you can shoot WELL. If that is a 9mm, that is absolutely fine. 9mm works quite well with the current crop of controlled expansion ammo. Gold Dot 124 gr +P is my preferred ammo in 9mm

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:41 AM   #48
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This debate has been going on for years and it really seems pointless. Buy and shoot the gun you prefer. End of debate. Or own many and shoot many, even better.

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Old 06-26-2013, 04:53 AM   #49
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To topic : Is James Yeager correct? I'd say NO.

OTOH, 9mm and 45ACP were both specifically

designed as anti-personnel rounds.


I use both. I DNK which is better.

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Old 06-26-2013, 05:32 AM   #50
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Overkill,

Agreed, you can't duplicate .357 Magnum loads in 9MM. However, if you're into high pressures the .357 doesn't start to dramatically pull away from 9MM NATO (+P+) until you have a 4 inch barrel or longer. This, of course, assumes you use 125 grain or lighter bullets. Obviously the .357 has more powder in the case and you can run it faster and produce more energy with it. For me, I would not want to run the .357 as hot as possible. Excessive flash and recoil aren't going to help you in a defensive shoot.

Here's what I was trying to get at. We're going to consider a Glock 17 with a 5" barrel and a Smith & Wesson R8 with a 5" barrel. A G17 is a little less than 8.5" long with the factory threaded barrel. The R8 is 10.5" long. Chop 2" off the R8 and now we have guns of comparable length. I selected those two because the R8 gives you 8 shots, weight is comparable, and both can mount a SureFire X300 which I would not leave home without.

If we fire loads in our 3" R8 that don't BBQ our assailant and blind us, the velocities are little different than 9MM NATO. Crank up the power as much as you'd like in your revolver, but I'd rather not be unable to see after the first shot.

I've shot a variety of heavy .357 Magnum loads in various revolvers, all of them steel frame, and I would not want to do that in an alloy frame revolver on a shooting range much less in the dark at 3AM. My experience with lightweight .38's and +P is that controllability is a problem.

Personally, I just don't think the extra power of hot 9MM or .357 Magnum is necessary to kill. Standard 9MM and .38 Special both have more than enough penetration to kill. If you don't hit something vital, don't expect them to stop.

WRT spiking the pressure in a .40 case, you're right, and if that can cause a problem in any gun, then perhaps that would indicate that if you're using a .40, properly manufactured ammunition is essential so you don't experience the associated problems.

WRT parts failures, yeah, shoot anything enough and it'll break (or at least my guns have). I always buy spares.

WRT Mr. Yeager, although I might not like how he says things, the man does have some experience teaching people how to use firearms and actually using firearms. Given the number of military personnel, PSC's, and civilians who have attended his classes, one would think that if there was a major problem with how he handles business that the flow of students would dry up.

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