Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Is James Yeager Correct, 9mm or .45 acp Only Good Choices For Defense Ammo?

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Old 06-24-2013, 03:12 PM   #31
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I like some of his videos on youtube while I don't agree with some of his stuff he does get me thinking on a few things. But anyway different people have different preferences. Like my neighbor shes an older woman can't work the slide on a semi auto so she has three revolvers all in 22lr she keeps loaded while no there not gonna stop an elaphant she can put all 6 shots in a targets head pretty damn quick. I know the 22 aint the ideal self defense round but it's better then nothing, where I prefer the .45 just because it's a big slow bullet and it's knocks the living hell out of anything it hits. I know these two rounds are completely different worlds apart but it's just how it is.

Me personally I'm not a big fan of the 40 I've shot them and there just not my cup of tea. I don't really like the 9mm unless its coming out an old luger or sometype of submachine gun or carbine. I'm not saying the 40's useless it's a hell of alot better then having a 22 or a pellet pistol but it's just not my cup of tea.

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Old 06-24-2013, 03:23 PM   #32
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James incorrect?
Yes he is! 40 S&W, 38 Spl, 357 Mag, 357 Sig, 41 Spl, 41 Mag, 44 Spl, 44 Mag, 45 Colt, 500 S&W, 454 are all acceptable self-defense rounds.

Self proclaimed experts are really stupid when it comes to common sense.

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Old 06-24-2013, 05:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
Overkill, those are maximum pressures for the listed cartridges.

Typical 9MM is not loaded that hot. The point I was trying to make is that if you're one of the ones who thinks they need to lob .357 Magnum bullets at the target, 9MM NATO is pretty close to a revolver of equivalent length (not a revolver with a barrel of equivalent length) using commonly available factory .357 Magnum and 9MM NATO loadings with 125gr bullets. Yes, the heavy Buffalo Bore .357 Magnum loadings make 9MM NATO loadings look pretty weak by way of comparison.
9mm NATO specs out very close to 9 mm +p, (36,500psi IIRC.) It's really not that special. FWIW, If I buy +P SD ammo, it probably ought to be pretty hot. Because that's what I'm paying for. El-Cheapo mild plinking ammo is another discussion entirely. The Hot Rod SD +p+ 9 mm loadings probably make 9mm NATO look anemic, though admittedly, there really is no official +P+ spec. Once you start getting to the heavy bullets (above 125 gr), .357mag leaves 9mm behind rather quickly. You don't need Buffalo bore for that. I included .357 Mag as simoply a number to add perspective, not for an apples to apples comparison.

Also, what Mr. Yeager was trying to convey was that pistols that were not originally designed for the more powerful .357 SIG, .40 S&W, and 10MM cartridges are sacrificing design strength for sake of compatibility with the smaller or less powerful cartridges.
10 mm was/is used in full frame pistols. OAL prevents it from being crammed into most pistols designed around 9mm. It wasn't until someone saw the shortened .40 S&W and thought-"hey, maybe we can cram this thing into the smaller framed models," was there an issue.

The USP was designed for .45 ACP (If I recall correctly), not 9MM or .40 S&W. Chambering the pistol in .40 S&W did not detract from the strength of the original design because there was plenty of room in the body of the pistol to beef up components for the .40 S&W cartridge.

The Glock was originally designed for 9MM, not .40 S&W. Additionally, the partially unsupported chamber is a reliability feature which, unfortunately, detracts from safety. Any out-of-spec .40 S&W cartridge has the potential to cause a malfunction and perhaps grenade the pistol if egregiously so. That's not what I would call a smart design feature, but that's how Glock designed it.
Later Generation Glocks have, for the most part, fixed the "Unsupported case" issue... ok, fine, maybe not "fixed," how about- noticeably improved. 3rd & 4th generation barrels offer more support.
IMHO, Bullet setback is a bigger hazard. How many "unsupported case failures" were cause by dramtic overpressure conditions brought into being by case setback?
Consider pricey SD ammo that is cycled through a number of times without firing. .40 S&W seems more susceptible than other calibers

Most of his criticism of the cartridge is really a criticism of pistol designs that favor reliability over safety. I'd say that makes the pistol unreliable with those cartridge calibers, but apparently he feels differently.

So, while .40 S&W is popular with my friends who own handguns, even Glocks, I would not buy a Glock, or any other pistol with a barrel that only partially supports the case in the chamber, chambered for the high pressure cartridges.

I am not a Glock fan for several reasons. Lack of .40 S&W case support isn't one of them.

At the end of the day, I listen to the trauma surgeon regarding the trauma that a particular bullet causes and the mechanical engineers regarding the design limitations of mechanical devices.
My initial point is that Yeager states that he doesn't like high pressure cartridges like the .40 S&W, but thinks that 9mm and .45 are nifty. Since 9 mm is regularly, & without undue drama, shot at higher pressure than .40 S&W,(IMHO) it calls every conclusion drawn from that assertion into question. It's OK to dislike the .40 S&W for any number of reasons (hell, I'm not really a huge fan), but selecting "High pressure" as the reason isn't really accurate.
The fact that he comes across as an arrogant know-it-all, is simply icing on the cake.
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:03 AM   #34
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Overkill,

I was trying to indicate that while hot 9MM loads that approach the "magic" 125gr .357 Magnum at 1250 FPS (I know it can be considerably faster with longer barrels and higher pressures), with a weapon of equivalent length (not equivalent barrel length where .357 Magnum wins almost every time).

I don't typically use hot loaded 9MM because I don't think there's a great enough increase in trauma caused by the more powerful cartridges to justify the recoil and slower target re-acquisition. Every trauma surgeon I've heard speak on the subject pretty much says the same thing. Most handgun ammunition isn't all that powerful and most people survive being shot by handguns. The ones that die usually die from blood loss.

Bullet setback in cartridge casings is an ammo manufacturing problem, not a problem with the pistol firing it.

Later generation Glock barrels do have more metal around the feed ramp area. It's not a major problem, but fully supported is still best.

I like my Glock 17 Gen 4 and have no major issues with it apart from the price of decent 9MM ammo now approaching pre-stupidity .45 ACP prices.

There's no problem with 9MM, .40 S&W, 10MM, or .45 ACP, but some people become very opinionated over time. I can put more rounds on target with 9MM in a short time window vs the other calibers, which is why I choose 9MM for carry.

What he says about wear and tear seems to square with what Glock says about maintenance intervals for consumable parts, like springs, so there's probably something to it no matter how overblown the issue may be.

As far as Mr. Yeager's character is concerned, he's little different than many of the people I met in the military. Definitely a Type A personality. I try to focus on the message and not the messenger.

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Old 06-25-2013, 06:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
High pressure handgun rounds don't accomplish anything that lower pressure handgun rounds don't on human targets.

I've shot .40 S&W and 10MM pistols and never had any desire to own either.

Is there anything wrong with those calibers? No, but what does the round do against a human target that a 9MM or .45 ACP won't?

If you want slower, fatter bullets you have .45 ACP. If you want faster, smaller bullets you have 9MM. The .40 S&W and 10MM bullets are slightly faster and slightly fatter than 9MM but provide minimal increases in performance for the major increases in pressure and wear & tear on the guns that chamber them.

So, while I could care less if someone uses .40 S&W I would ask them what that cartridge offers that hot loaded 9MM NATO ammunition does not. 10MM cartridges are about equivalent with .357 Magnum loadings and, unsurprisingly, most people have problems with fast follow up shots.

How many 9MM or .45 ACP handguns have been blown up by hot loaded cartridges vs .40 S&W or 10MM?
Now that you have consumed your allotment of James Yeager Kool Aid, lets look at this more objectively.

From this perspective one only has two choices; slow/fat or small/fast. You went here when Yeager's argument is about pressure. The choices are low pressure/fat or high pressure/light.

The 9mm pressure limits are EXACTLY THE SAME as those of the .40. If high pressure is a bad thing, the 9mm is a bad thing.

What does the .40 (or 10mm) do to a human target that the 9mm or .45 can't? Let's see. The .400 180 gr bullet fired at 950 or 1300 (depending on launch platform) has far more mass than the 9mm and better sectional density than the .45. Sectional density is one of the most important factors in penetration. Penetration of intermediate barriers AND still having sufficient energy to deliver an incapacitating wound to the intended target. Intermediate barriers like heavy clothing, automotive glass and sheet metal, Building construction materials like sheet rock and plywood. The 180 grain .400 bullet does this quite well.

As to wear and tear on guns. Let us see, I have fired 10's of thousands of .40 and 10mm cartridges over the years. I have had to replace a sear on an STI 2011 after untold # of rounds. This was a combination carry/competition gun. I bought it used and have no idea how many rounds were fired by the previous owner. One sear in 7 years and at least 10,000 rounds down range. My S&W 1006 has had close to 5000 rounds through it since I bought it. It was a police trade in gun from the Baytown PD in Texas. ZERO mechanical breakdowns. My S&W (ugh) Sigma 40C has over 5000 rounds through it since I bought it new in about '96. ZERO mechanical breakdowns. My G-20C does not have enough round count to even factor in (maybe 500), but again zero mechanical breakdowns. By comparison, my S&W 9V Sigma has 2-3000 rounds through it (no breakdowns). My .4506 Smith has probably 15000 rounds with no breakdowns.

Mechanical failure is the exception, not the norm in quality firearms regardless of caliber or presure level.

And, as far as the 10mm being some sort of fire breathing beast that mere mortals cannot handle, I have found the recoil of the hot loaded 10mm with the compensated barrel of the Glock 20C is LESS than the recoil of other polyframed guns in .40. The recoil is less than that of a 230 gr .45 ACP out of my 4506.

People like James Yeager give gun owners a bad name. Opinions are a lot like butt holes; everyone has one and most of them stink.

If someone knows this white trash, trailer park douche bag, please tell him to STFU!
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Old 06-25-2013, 06:48 AM   #36
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I am looking at it objectively, robocop.

If you've never spoken to a trauma surgeon, walk into Ben Taub here in Houston and ask them about what handgun bullets do to humans. .40 looks better on paper than 9MM because it is better on paper. Then there's all the people who were shot with all of the listed handgun cartridges and lived thanks to modern medicine. They're just not that powerful, but you can still bleed to death. For those interested in the numbers, that's what typically kills handgun shooting victims, not the power of .40 S&W or 9MM.

The police use .40 S&W here. It works, but there's no magic there. Some handgun cartridges are better than others, but still no magic.

It's not a question of, is it more effective than 9MM. Of course there are more effective cartridges. It's a question of how much more effective. Given the numbers of heavily dressed and still very dead Russians who were killed by 9MM pistols and submachine guns, it's kinda hard to argue that it won't work.

9MM, .40 S&W, 10MM, and .45 ACP all penetrate enough to reach the vitals, so what kind of magic does a .40 S&W do that a 9MM don't?

I don't use hot loaded 9MM cartridges very frequently, because even a standard low pressure 9MM cartridge penetrates more than far enough to reach the vitals.

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:33 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
I am looking at it objectively, robocop.

If you've never spoken to a trauma surgeon, walk into Ben Taub here in Houston and ask them about what handgun bullets do to humans. .40 looks better on paper than 9MM because it is better on paper. Then there's all the people who were shot with all of the listed handgun cartridges and lived thanks to modern medicine. They're just not that powerful, but you can still bleed to death. For those interested in the numbers, that's what typically kills handgun shooting victims, not the power of .40 S&W or 9MM.

The police use .40 S&W here. It works, but there's no magic there. Some handgun cartridges are better than others, but still no magic.

It's not a question of, is it more effective than 9MM. Of course there are more effective cartridges. It's a question of how much more effective. Given the numbers of heavily dressed and still very dead Russians who were killed by 9MM pistols and submachine guns, it's kinda hard to argue that it won't work.

9MM, .40 S&W, 10MM, and .45 ACP all penetrate enough to reach the vitals, so what kind of magic does a .40 S&W do that a 9MM don't?

I don't use hot loaded 9MM cartridges very frequently, because even a standard low pressure 9MM cartridge penetrates more than far enough to reach the vitals.
"On paper" they all look about the same. 9, 40 or 45. 360 to 420 ft/lbs of energy. IMHO paper ballistics mean EVERYTHING, on paper. Actual results matter.

I have seen shootings where a 9mm 147 gr Gold Dot entered the pelvic area, ricocheted off the pelvic girdle, travelled diagonally through the lower abdomen and exited just south of the rib cage. BG dropped his weapon and writhed in agony (he survived).

I have seen shootings where a .40 180 gr Gold Dot punched through a car windshieldl, through the BG and stopped (fully expanded) with out penetrating the seat cloth of the driver's seat (he too survived).

I have seen a .45 ACP 230 gr Gold Dot fully penetrate the skull of a mortally injured 2000 pound bull, and 3" of soft mud only to be recoverd fully expanded and still weighing 228 gr (he did not survive).

I have seen a .357 Magnum 158 gr Gold Dot penetrate the chest cavity of a wounded deer, stop just under the skin on the far side after destroying the heart and both lungs AND actually gain weight (bone fragments embedded in the core), (he too did NOT survive)

I have also seen a Remington Golden Sabre .45 ACP 230 gr BJHP shed the jacket while trying to get through a car windshield and spray the target with a very survivable spray of lead and glas fragments.

Handguns are NOT good man stoppers. Rifles and shotguns are much better at this task. Handguns are carried because of portability, not effectiveness. For a chucklehead like James Yeager to proclaim the .40 an inferior round is just a bunch of disinformation.

I was not convinced the .40 was a good "compromise" when first introduced. Experience and real world application have shown me it is every bit as adequate (perhaps better) than the 9mm or .45 ACP.

Oh and on the penetration topic; they all seem to have adequate penetration to do the intended job in normal situations. Best case scenario to best case scenario, there is not much difference. Worst case to worst case there is a significant difference. The .40 with its high sectional density (with the 180 grain bullet) will be much more likely to penetrate the leather jacket sleeve, the massive upper arm, the jacket two more times, gain entry into the thoracic cavity, reach and penetrate the vitals organs of an angry Bandito biker.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:34 AM   #38
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Now I am watching Yeager videos. Man has he changed. Have you guys seen his dramatic appearance makeover?

He used to weigh fifty pounds more, had some hair on the top of his head, no gotee, and no DDTs. He shakes now like a leaf in the wind, where he used to not shake, fidget and scratch. He shows some serious signs of chemical dependence. Maybe bodybuilding drugs? Maybe crack or cocaine?

Sad.

Anyway, enjoying this exchange on handgun calibers.

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Old 06-25-2013, 07:57 AM   #39
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Meth? Could explain a lot.

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Old 06-25-2013, 08:47 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by kbd512 View Post
High pressure handgun rounds don't accomplish anything that lower pressure handgun rounds don't on human targets.

I've shot .40 S&W and 10MM pistols and never had any desire to own either.

Is there anything wrong with those calibers? No, but what does the round do against a human target that a 9MM or .45 ACP won't?

If you want slower, fatter bullets you have .45 ACP. If you want faster, smaller bullets you have 9MM. The .40 S&W and 10MM bullets are slightly faster and slightly fatter than 9MM but provide minimal increases in performance for the major increases in pressure and wear & tear on the guns that chamber them.

So, while I could care less if someone uses .40 S&W I would ask them what that cartridge offers that hot loaded 9MM NATO ammunition does not. 10MM cartridges are about equivalent with .357 Magnum loadings and, unsurprisingly, most people have problems with fast follow up shots.

How many 9MM or .45 ACP handguns have been blown up by hot loaded cartridges vs .40 S&W or 10MM?
Your theory is good up to a point, but there is one thing you overlooked... projectile weight. If given a choice between a 110 gr projectile at 1200 fps and a 165 gr projectile at 1200 fps I will always choose the heavier projectile. Newtons law hasn't been repealed.
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