Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Is James Yeager Correct, 9mm or .45 acp Only Good Choices For Defense Ammo?

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Old 06-23-2013, 04:54 PM   #21
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If 9 and .45 are the only effective rounds, should I throw away my .357 and .44?

Yeager is an opinionated idiot. Before I accepted his opinion on firearms, I would consult Donald Duck about my 401K.

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Old 06-23-2013, 05:04 PM   #22
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Unless you find yourself in a fire fight surrounded by zombies ANY caliber in ANY gun will protect you. I get very tired of what I call "caliber snobs". If you want the most effective round for dispatching adversaries then get yourself a 22lr. good luck

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Old 06-23-2013, 06:14 PM   #23
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Really? Someone's in your house and your first thought is "Gee, I wish I had something besides that 40 in the closet."

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Old 06-23-2013, 07:15 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTX63
Really? Someone's in your house and your first thought is "Gee, I wish I had something besides that 40 in the closet."
^^^^^^^
Couldn't have said it better!!
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Old 06-23-2013, 08:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Gee, I wish I had something besides that 40 in the closet."
No he said they were all effective rounds just that he did not like .40 and give his reasons why. People can agree or disagree with his reasons but he did not say the .40 was a ineffective round.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:12 AM   #26
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I think it is not so much a condemnation of the many 40 derivative rounds, as it is in praise of the 9mm and .45 acp as great rounds, and sometimes overlooked.

If I were to give an edge to one round over the other, 9 or 45, I would vote 9 because of higher round counts in a narrower frame, as well as somewhat easier to conceal, and control under fire.

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Old 06-24-2013, 09:38 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagermeister View Post
A doctor's view.....
Thanks, Jager.

Yes everyone, let's all try to listen to what a trauma surgeon has to say about what various caliber handgun ammunition does to the human body. I place more trust and faith in what he has to say than anyone else in the forum who is not a trauma surgeon.

If you listen closely, he's trying to tell his audience that all handgun wounds are pretty much the same, as opposed to wounds caused with rifles or shotguns.

So if all handgun bullet wounds are all pretty much the same, what's more important, high pressure for slight increases in velocity/energy or crushing the tissue in the right place with accurate shots?
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:11 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
Max Pressures of common (& some less common) handgun cartridges:
9 mm 35,000 psi
9 mm +P 38,000 psi
.40 S&W 35,000 psi
10 mm 37,500 psi
.357 mag 35,000 psi
.357 Sig 40,000 psi
.45 GAP 23,000 psi

.40 is "high pressure" But 9 mm is good? Tell me more...
Overkill, those are maximum pressures for the listed cartridges.

Typical 9MM is not loaded that hot. The point I was trying to make is that if you're one of the ones who thinks they need to lob .357 Magnum bullets at the target, 9MM NATO is pretty close to a revolver of equivalent length (not a revolver with a barrel of equivalent length) using commonly available factory .357 Magnum and 9MM NATO loadings with 125gr bullets. Yes, the heavy Buffalo Bore .357 Magnum loadings make 9MM NATO loadings look pretty weak by way of comparison.

Also, what Mr. Yeager was trying to convey was that pistols that were not originally designed for the more powerful .357 SIG, .40 S&W, and 10MM cartridges are sacrificing design strength for sake of compatibility with the smaller or less powerful cartridges.

The USP was designed for .45 ACP (If I recall correctly), not 9MM or .40 S&W. Chambering the pistol in .40 S&W did not detract from the strength of the original design because there was plenty of room in the body of the pistol to beef up components for the .40 S&W cartridge.

The Glock was originally designed for 9MM, not .40 S&W. Additionally, the partially unsupported chamber is a reliability feature which, unfortunately, detracts from safety. Any out-of-spec .40 S&W cartridge has the potential to cause a malfunction and perhaps grenade the pistol if egregiously so. That's not what I would call a smart design feature, but that's how Glock designed it.

Most of his criticism of the cartridge is really a criticism of pistol designs that favor reliability over safety. I'd say that makes the pistol unreliable with those cartridge calibers, but apparently he feels differently.

So, while .40 S&W is popular with my friends who own handguns, even Glocks, I would not buy a Glock, or any other pistol with a barrel that only partially supports the case in the chamber, chambered for the high pressure cartridges.

At the end of the day, I listen to the trauma surgeon regarding the trauma that a particular bullet causes and the mechanical engineers regarding the design limitations of mechanical devices.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:38 PM   #29
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Sure, whenever I need firearms advice I go on YouTube and look for the nearest idiot.

Maybe I'm a "caliber snob" when it comes to 45ACP but calibers are like combat boots. One size does not fit all. If you're comfortable and proficient with it you can kill somebody. This issue is debated to death by people who have never and will never have occasion to shoot anybody and every swingin d*ck is an expert.

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Old 06-24-2013, 03:09 PM   #30
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I'm not an expert on handgun cartridges and don't claim to be one, but I've had an interest in the technical design details of firearms since I was a small child.

That said, it shouldn't take much technical knowledge to understand that a firearm design that was meant to be adequate for a particular caliber may not be adequate if a larger, more powerful caliber cartridge in a dimensionally identical firearm, or very near, with little redesign for the increased power of the more powerful cartridge.

So, while a chamber that does not fully support the cartridge casing of a lower pressure 9MM cartridge may be just fine, the 5K-8K PSI increase in pressure over a standard 9MM cartridge that a hot loaded .40 S&W cartridge may exhibit may be enough to cause problems.

Everything I've seen, with respect to Glock cartridge casing failures for .40 S&W and 10MM, pretty clearly indicates that that is the case.

So, you might want to use a fully supported barrel for those calibers if you plan to shoot hot loaded cartridges in those calibers.

It's a design flaw in my opinion, but Glock prides itself on reliability, not increased margin of error for ammunition that doesn't meet SAAMI specifications.

With a company that believes that it's product has achieved perfection, it's hard to have a dialogue with them regarding problems with their product.

For instance, finger grooves on the frame only serve those whose hands perfectly fit that grip sizing. The texture on the new Gen 4 frame would improve grip a lot more than finger grooves, but Glock just won't admit that it was a dumb idea and stop doing it.

The grip purchase on the slide is insufficient for rapid manipulation when you have grease or blood on your hands and should be improved. Again, they know this and could do something about it but haven't. Chris Costa was not lying when he said that you need to be able to manipulate your weapon when your hands are filthy. S&W seems to have listened, but Glock hasn't. Oh well, there's always aftermarket mods.

Apart from that, the steel reinforced frame that the M&P series uses is a better idea than an all-polymer from and Glock should do that, too.

Not putting a Picatinny rail on the frame is just perplexing in this day and age. Nobody is using their funky weapon light contraption, they're running SureFire X300's or Streamlights.

It's still a great pistol design, but it could be made better and with minimal effort.

So, I'd say James is partially correct. Using a pistol design that's only adequate for a lower powered cartridge with a higher powered cartridge is not a particularly good idea. As far as that applying to all pistols, I'm pretty sure the police would've dropped the .40 S&W cartridge requirement by now, but every department seems to be switching to that cartridge.

Using quality chrome silicon springs instead of stainless steel springs would help improve function a lot, especially at higher round counts, but since you don't have to replace them and the material might cost a dollar more than stainless steel, don't expect Glock or any other major manufacturer to do that any time soon. They'd loose to much money on replacement parts and springs.

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