Is James Yeager Correct, 9mm or .45 acp Only Good Choices For Defense Ammo? - Page 11
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Is James Yeager Correct, 9mm or .45 acp Only Good Choices For Defense Ammo?


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Old 08-03-2013, 02:43 PM   #101
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The foolish thing about the FBI Miami shootout was the FBI initiated the bust.

Don't do to a knife fight with a fist.

Don't do to a pistol fight with a knife.

Don't go to a rifle fight with a revolver.

The FBI showed poor judgment in the way they orchestrated this arrest. They knew these men had rifles, or access to rifles.

Good men died that day, because agents used poor judgment, had inferior tools to fight with.

Having a revolver as a sidearm, 150 years past the OK corral, and then not using the best ammo in that revolver, is the pinnacle of stupid and bad policy.

Today, the standard sidearm of the FBI is a Glock 23. I have a 23C. Good pistol. I think a hot 40, 357 Sig, or 9 +P+ , in high capacity formats are a minimum standard. A Glock 10mm is better. 5.56 better still. 308 if need be.

You have to constantly analyze the threat conditions, and arm yourself with the best tools for the task.

Milk, butter, eggs, in the 20 items or less checkout line, is not the place for 5.56. It is also not the place for a down loaded wheel gun. IMHO. That is my life.

The life of those agents, that day, was a rolling felony stop, of known rifle and pistol felons, and the agents had no rifles, and some only had down loaded revolvers. Very poor judgment, very poor planing, dire outcome from many errors.

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Old 08-03-2013, 03:19 PM   #102
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Very poor judgment, very poor planing, dire outcome from many errors.
That's the Federal Budget back then. Do you spend the money on the Crime Lab or arm staff that technicality are investigators and not police officers (that's the Marshall Service). If you are going to blame anyone then blame the Director. Should they have made the stop, No, they should have called in the local PD to assist, but they were under pressure to stop these guys from Washington. You are correct, they did use bad judgement trying to show off for their boss.

You have to remember these are lawyers and accountants (basically desk jockeys) that are playing cops and robbers. It's call the Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION for a reason. They are very good at what they do, but being LEO's is not one of them.

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Old 08-03-2013, 11:21 PM   #103
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What if you had been in a dark Colorado theater when the massacre started, and you only had a 38 revolver? Would that be enough to stop what happened ?, or only angry the attacker and open up yourself as a target?

In our CC classes regulated by the state, we teach two shots per draw of the handgun. In a real life shoot out, that could be one more than necessary, or not enough.

I retired a Star PD (1911 style) many years ago, and went with a Glock for one primary reason: Capacity. Fifteen round mags, added plus 2 floor plates and one in the chamber, with two additional mags ment I was well armed. I recently added many more mags, and switched to plus 5 floor plates.

My ankle holster has 18 rounds of 9mm + P + in a Beretta PX4 Storm Sub Compact. I alternate that with a Glock 23c with a plus 2 floor plate giving me 16 rounds.

School shootings, Van Mar shooting, Netherlands shooting (89 people killed?) FBI shootouts, LA shootouts, and my government putting thousands of guns on the Fast and Furious streets in drug dealer hands, not to mention purchasing 2 billion rounds of ammo.

My tiny arsenal of guns and ammo pales in comparison. I am not comfortable with one 1911 and one or two magazines. Not in today's political winds, not with 100,000 armed gang members in one Midwestern city alone.

One poster wants stats. Open any news app on your smart phone, and the stories of violence never end.
In a word, yes. You run what you brung. If all you have is your bare hands, then that's what you have to work with. Whether prepared or not, bad things always have and always will happen. That's not even a question.

You can choose to stand there and wait for your turn to be shot or you can use whatever you have and whatever you know to try to stop the assault. Teamwork counts for a lot in those situations. Personally, I'd rather take a chance with my life while trying to survive and assist others in that pursuit rather than simply waiting for my turn to be murdered.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:26 PM   #104
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That's the Federal Budget back then. Do you spend the money on the Crime Lab or arm staff that technicality are investigators and not police officers (that's the Marshall Service). If you are going to blame anyone then blame the Director. Should they have made the stop, No, they should have called in the local PD to assist, but they were under pressure to stop these guys from Washington. You are correct, they did use bad judgement trying to show off for their boss.

You have to remember these are lawyers and accountants (basically desk jockeys) that are playing cops and robbers. It's call the Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION for a reason. They are very good at what they do, but being LEO's is not one of them.

Jim
Exactly... They should have waited for more heavily armed backup. There was no urgent need to arrest them at that specific place and time.
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Old 08-03-2013, 11:43 PM   #105
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The agents made a number of mistakes including rifle rated armor (which was available to them). Remember, it was a former street cop that brought that to a conclusion (Ed Mireles). San Antonio, Texas street cop. Texas! Hell Yea!
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Old 08-04-2013, 01:25 AM   #106
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For many years I had the 'official' FBI training video made reference this incident. As stated above this was not an 'equipment' or 'ballistic' problem which caused the deaths of the agents. (Other than the agent who lost his glasses and was killed as a result)
And the agent who got the 'credit' for ending it shot a dead man. At that point he was 'bled' out. This video was skewed to make the 'agency' look as good as possible, but it was still very apparent they screwed up big time. This is not a perfect world and others in LE will make mistakes. If we admit to them and LEARN for them then those who were injured or killed as a result do not do so in vain.
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Old 08-05-2013, 06:30 PM   #107
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Zimmerman needed only 1 shot because of the proximity to Martin - Martin was straddling him, one shot was all that was needed.

Now, take a few attackers that are about 10-12 feet away, shooting at you. You have cover, but are unable to escape. One tries to get a better shot at you, there is a lull in the firing, you look towards where the shooter is, and take a few shots to get him. The other guy starts shooting at you, you turn to him and have a clean shot and take it.

With adrenaline running through you, as well as fear, do you truly think that you'll be able to make a kill shot with just 1 round each? If you do, you're wrong.

Military shooters train often. Many of them learn how to use the adrenaline to their advantage, some don't.

Civilians, on the other hand, don't have access to the kind of training needed to get that level of adrenaline pumping. Paintball isn't the same, as there are no real dangers involved.

So, yes, capacity CAN be a factor in whether or not you survive a shootout, as can caliber.

You want more info?

Look at The North Hollywood shootout between LAPD and armed bank robbers on February 28, 1997.

Also take a look at the shootout between the FBI and armed bank robbers in Miami on April 12, 1986.

Yes, these were cops and FBI agents. However, that doesn't detract from the facts. Will a LAC be involved in a shootout? Maybe. Will it come down to who is the better shot, or who has more bullets? Well, cover can make a great marksman a novice.
You forgot to the urban house to house shootouts in Iraq. Just as relevant to as the two shootouts you mentioned. Because the average concealed carrier gets into monster shootouts just like FBI, LAPD and Special Forces entry teams. If I am to use the standard of the FBI and North Hollywood shootouts, I will need to conceal an AR-15 with about 10 reloads, along with the appropriate body armor.
Maybe Gecko45 will jump in with some other ideas.
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Old 08-06-2013, 03:46 AM   #108
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You forgot to the urban house to house shootouts in Iraq. Just as relevant to as the two shootouts you mentioned. Because the average concealed carrier gets into monster shootouts just like FBI, LAPD and Special Forces entry teams. If I am to use the standard of the FBI and North Hollywood shootouts, I will need to conceal an AR-15 with about 10 reloads, along with the appropriate body armor.
Maybe Gecko45 will jump in with some other ideas.
Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you wanted info showing why you should have an extra mag or 2 with you.

I also figured that you would be able to utilize critical thinking skills to extrapolate the reasoning behind those examples I posted.

Sorry, I won't assume you have that skill in the future.

To point out, the average concealed carrier doesn't have the training that these other groups have. Meaning, they'll get hit hard with adrenaline and fear. And when that happens, they may hit the bad guy, but most likely not in a vital area. So, it doesn't really matter if they have a .44 Magnum, they'll need at least 1 reload - if they are lucky enough.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:12 AM   #109
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I'm not aware of a SINGLE truly reputable firearm instructor or any actual, experienced special forces veteran who thinks that Yeager is anything other than an "idiot" ... the most common term I hear used to describe him, which can be printed here.
I am a firearms instructor, 56 years old, retired gun dealer.

Your statement has somewhat of a catch 22 in it. If you have watched lots of Yeager's videos, to determine, he is more often wrong than right, that would be somewhat odd, would it not?

If you have seen very few of his videos, yet think he is not doing what a firearms instructor should be doing, what are you basing your opinion on?

I have watched about 30 of his videos. He appears to be someone doing some body building as of late, and body building, taken to extreme, can change someone's personality to come off harsh, cold, unfeeling.

I think he has a pretty good grasp on safety, protocol, tactics, and a desire to teach.

I find no major faults in the man that would make me warn others to shun him. I play a couple of his videos in my classroom. I think he cusses too much, but so does my wife.

Is he correct, the only proper semi auto handgun loads are 9mm & .45acp? That I question.

I like owning lots of calibers, in both handgun and rifles & shotguns. Diversity is a good thing.

My carry gun today, as it has been for a week, is a Glock 23C. I do not think I am in any way unprotected by my carry choice. It has been duty tested by many major law enforcement agencies, and is the primary duty weapon for todays FBI. Mine being compensated is a plus in my mind, all aspects being weighed.

Sometime soon, after I do some more training, I will try using my Glock 32 as my concealed carry handgun. The medium Glocks are pretty sweet firearms, in any caliber.
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Old 08-06-2013, 05:43 AM   #110
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I am a firearms instructor, 56 years old, retired gun dealer.

Your statement has somewhat of a catch 22 in it. If you have watched lots of Yeager's videos, to determine, he is more often wrong than right, that would be somewhat odd, would it not?

If you have seen very few of his videos, yet think he is not doing what a firearms instructor should be doing, what are you basing your opinion on?

I have watched about 30 of his videos. He appears to be someone doing some body building as of late, and body building, taken to extreme, can change someone's personality to come off harsh, cold, unfeeling.

I think he has a pretty good grasp on safety, protocol, tactics, and a desire to teach.

I find no major faults in the man that would make me warn others to shun him. I play a couple of his videos in my classroom. I think he cusses too much, but so does my wife.

Is he correct, the only proper semi auto handgun loads are 9mm & .45acp? That I question.

I like owning lots of calibers, in both handgun and rifles & shotguns. Diversity is a good thing.

My carry gun today, as it has been for a week, is a Glock 23C. I do not think I am in any way unprotected by my carry choice. It has been duty tested by many major law enforcement agencies, and is the primary duty weapon for todays FBI. Mine being compensated is a plus in my mind, all aspects being weighed.

Sometime soon, after I do some more training, I will try using my Glock 32 as my concealed carry handgun. The medium Glocks are pretty sweet firearms, in any caliber.
If Yeager is talking about his personal choices for SD ammo in a stand alone video, that's one thing.

If he's stating it to a class he's teaching, that's something completely different. And it's wrong.

As an instructor, no matter what you are teaching about, personal biases, likes, dislikes, and such should not remotely be mentioned.

However, if you love the Glock 20, and believe it to be the better choice for SD, and have instances that show this to be the best choice, that's something else.

Not sure about your neck of the woods, but around here, most firearms instructors stay in business because of the recommendations they get from their students - not endorsements from the NRA, local PD or anyone else.

I went to a class with a friend who was going for his LTC-A (our ccw). I already had mine (it was a bring a friend for free, and I wanted to brush up and check out the school). This one student was asking the instructor some questions, got a few non responses, so she kept asking (like - will we be training with different calibers? with semi and revolvers? can we choose which we would like to focus the training on? None of which was covered in the course description). He got ticked off, and almost yelled at her to get out of the class. I asked why he chose to be an instructor if he couldn't handle a few questions (which, he told us we can ask anything we wanted).

Granted, the above is a bit off topic. But it does show that there are some people that regardless of their intentions, should not be teaching. Same holds true (even more so) for those people that can't keep personal biases out of the classroom (Yeager saying 9mm or .45ACP are the only good SD choices).

Claiming an ammo type is the best for SD carry, is exactly like saying that there are only a couple of handguns that are the best for EDC - and we all know that statement to be false, so why wouldn't the claim about ammo be false too?
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