Firearm & Gun Forum - FireArmsTalk.com > General Firearms Forums > Training & Safety > Is James Yeager Correct, 9mm or .45 acp Only Good Choices For Defense Ammo?

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Old 07-28-2013, 03:52 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Gh0zt36

Would that be considered a SBS seeing as it has no buttstock ? Wouldnt that be a pistol or ?
Serbu (the company that makes it), buys them from the factory with just pistol grips, so it's only an AOW, not an SBS. But if you get into all the legal stuff, building your own would be an SBS. It's just an expensive, showy toy.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:15 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by AR10 View Post
Read. I read several national sources, and every local source, daily.
I sometimes look at local mug shot postings, and read what they were charged for.
You cannot gauge the average freshness of a jar of mayonnaise by statistics.
You must determine the value of the the mayo by each use. Saying you have lived in the same house twenty years, and never had any trouble, does not mean you leave your house unlocked at night.

Omaha, recently. 93 year old woman, sleeping in a home with family, is attacked, raped, beaten so badly, she dies several days later. Attacker was asleep in her bed when police were called in the morning. Illegal alien from Mexico doing odd roofing jobs. In the country four months.

Watch the movie, no country for old men, and get a glimpse into what is happening on the streets of America, today.
Thanks for the list of non-sequiturs. Here's mine: George Zimmerman only needed one shot. Oh wait, no, it's relevant.
The mayo thing was kind of Zen. Sort a "sound of one hand clapping, tree falls in the woods" thing.
The little old lady was tragic, but you'll forgive me if I don't find it relevant.
The movie reference? Well, sorry, but WTF? Dig deeper and I'm sure you can work the Die Hard movies in somehow.
Exactly how does any of this constitute anything relevant to a discussion of the need for increased SD firearms capacity?

Near as I can tell, you're saying "The world is a dangerous place, and...."
I simply asked you to elaborate upon your assertion: In a gun fight, capacity is often times a deciding factor of who lives and who dies.
Not disputing it, just want more info.
My original query still stands:
"I would be very surprised if the typical LAC fires more than the often cited 2 to 3 rounds in an encounter. If this stat has changed, I'd like to see the data."
I was polite. I was deliberately non-confrontational.
What sort of gunfight are we talking about? How much is enough? That's a pretty broad statement you made. I didn't see me asking for some more info as unreasonable. I mean if this is true, maybe I need to consider upgrading.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:50 PM   #93
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I have been around 2 barroom shootings. Both times the aggressor was shot. Neither one wanted to fight any more. This was prior to the advent of plastic guns. So both were probably shot with a 25/32 cal. Both shooters managed to disappear into the crowd. Both of the men that were shot lived to tell about it. Both recovered to live a full life.

Unless the bad guy is on drugs a single shot in the belly with anything will change their mind. With the advent of plastic guns no one carries a 25 anymore. Most people at least have a 380. Even if the attacker is on drugs a couple shots will convince him that finding a doctor is more important than revenge.
"a single shot in the belly with anything WILL change their mind" I have been involved, directly and indirectly, in MANY shootings and stabbings I found just the opposite!
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Overkill0084 View Post
Thanks for the list of non-sequiturs. Here's mine: George Zimmerman only needed one shot. Oh wait, no, it's relevant.
The mayo thing was kind of Zen. Sort a "sound of one hand clapping, tree falls in the woods" thing.
The little old lady was tragic, but you'll forgive me if I don't find it relevant.
The movie reference? Well, sorry, but WTF? Dig deeper and I'm sure you can work the Die Hard movies in somehow.
Exactly how does any of this constitute anything relevant to a discussion of the need for increased SD firearms capacity?

Near as I can tell, you're saying "The world is a dangerous place, and...."
I simply asked you to elaborate upon your assertion: In a gun fight, capacity is often times a deciding factor of who lives and who dies.
Not disputing it, just want more info.
My original query still stands:
"I would be very surprised if the typical LAC fires more than the often cited 2 to 3 rounds in an encounter. If this stat has changed, I'd like to see the data."
I was polite. I was deliberately non-confrontational.
What sort of gunfight are we talking about? How much is enough? That's a pretty broad statement you made. I didn't see me asking for some more info as unreasonable. I mean if this is true, maybe I need to consider upgrading.
Zimmerman needed only 1 shot because of the proximity to Martin - Martin was straddling him, one shot was all that was needed.

Now, take a few attackers that are about 10-12 feet away, shooting at you. You have cover, but are unable to escape. One tries to get a better shot at you, there is a lull in the firing, you look towards where the shooter is, and take a few shots to get him. The other guy starts shooting at you, you turn to him and have a clean shot and take it.

With adrenaline running through you, as well as fear, do you truly think that you'll be able to make a kill shot with just 1 round each? If you do, you're wrong.

Military shooters train often. Many of them learn how to use the adrenaline to their advantage, some don't.

Civilians, on the other hand, don't have access to the kind of training needed to get that level of adrenaline pumping. Paintball isn't the same, as there are no real dangers involved.

So, yes, capacity CAN be a factor in whether or not you survive a shootout, as can caliber.

You want more info?

Look at The North Hollywood shootout between LAPD and armed bank robbers on February 28, 1997.

Also take a look at the shootout between the FBI and armed bank robbers in Miami on April 12, 1986.

Yes, these were cops and FBI agents. However, that doesn't detract from the facts. Will a LAC be involved in a shootout? Maybe. Will it come down to who is the better shot, or who has more bullets? Well, cover can make a great marksman a novice.
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Old 08-02-2013, 12:52 PM   #95
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I'm not aware of a SINGLE truly reputable firearm instructor or any actual, experienced special forces veteran who thinks that Yeager is anything other than an "idiot" ... the most common term I hear used to describe him, which can be printed here.

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Old 08-03-2013, 07:57 AM   #96
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I'm not aware of a SINGLE truly reputable firearm instructor or any actual, experienced special forces veteran who thinks that Yeager is anything other than an "idiot" ... the most common term I hear used to describe him, which can be printed here.
I'm neither (though I am a Vet), and I know I have much to learn about the firearms world. And I think this guy is an idiot.

But, I have had conversations with many "more" experienced shooters, as well as combat vets of the SF community, and they all basically said the same thing...to limit yourself to a single weapons platform and a single caliber, you limit your ability to be effective.
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Old 08-03-2013, 10:19 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by AR10
James has a video, where he gives his opinion that .40 type ammo (any high pressure round) is a bad idea for your personal carry self defense round.

As a 20 year owner.of a Glock 20, this opinion took me buy surprise.

With today's modern ammo, in today's modern built firearms, many built to shoot better, harder hitting rounds, often with no increased recoil, is James on to something?

My only high pressure handgun is my Glock 20, that I carry with Buffalo Bore ammo, topping 1,500 fps, throwing a 100% copper hollow point someone could park a Buick in.

My other carry gun is a Baretta Sub Compact Storm in 9mm.

Did I get that recent choice correct, or is James incorrect?
Why do you give a rip about this guy's opinion? Does he know more than the ballistics experts who developed the .40? I know our Govt can be stupid - typically not when it comes to firepower.

The 40 is a great platform that old school shooters don't like cause they think there should be a whopping choice of 2 rounds for semi auto handguns / yet how many rifle cartridges are there?

The Internet. You know what they say opinions are like -
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Old 08-03-2013, 12:08 PM   #98
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Why do you give a rip about this guy's opinion? Does he know more than the ballistics experts who developed the .40? I know our Govt can be stupid - typically not when it comes to firepower.

The 40 is a great platform that old school shooters don't like cause they think there should be a whopping choice of 2 rounds for semi auto handguns / yet how many rifle cartridges are there?

The Internet. You know what they say opinions are like -
There's nothing wrong with 9MM or .40 S&W or .357 Magnum, there's just not enough power increase over 9MM to justify the increased expense of the cartridge.

I'm getting my information from Ben Taub trauma surgeons, not James Yeager, the local range guru, the internet, or angry birds.

The consensus is that handgun cartridges just aren't that powerful, people shot with handguns tend to bleed to death if they do die, and most tend to live rather than die with the availability of modern medicine.

So, your best bet is multiple rounds on target as fast as possible. A 9x18MM, 9x19MM, or .38 Special all penetrate more than enough to reach the heart and lungs, so I choose one of those.

I shoot .357 Magnum, .45 ACP, and .45 Colt for fun. It's not that they won't do the job, they certainly will, it's just that they won't do the job so much better that each cartridge is "worth" two or more 9MM cartridges.

I wouldn't turn my nose up at a .40 S&W pistol or a .357 Magnum revolver, it's just not my first choice because it doesn't do anything that 9MM won't do from a practical standpoint and the ammo costs more, which means less practice and training for those of us who aren't sponsored shooters.

Accuracy being equal but shot-to-shot times not being equal, is it better to send a lot of lead downrange or to send a "special" piece of lead downrange?

10MM was the genesis of .40S&W, so let's discuss the backstory. Now, about the "power" or lack thereof of the 9MM, Agent Dove shot Platt with a 9MM pistol and the bullet went through his arm, collapsed his lung, stopped an inch from his heart, and he eventually drowned in his own blood- about 2 3/4 pints if I recall correctly. He was shot a number of times, including with a shotgun, and he failed to stop. In fact, he killed Agent Grogan and Agent Dove after receiving a couple more wounds. Would he be dead if Agent Dove had shot him with a .357 Magnum? Maybe, maybe not. He was dead either way after Agent Dove hit him the first time. Agent Dove had his gun shot out of his hand. It wouldn't have mattered if it was a .44 Magnum, no gun equals not participating in a gunfight as a shooter. On to Matix... He was shot with a magical .357 Magnum multiple times and only when his central nervous system was affected did the fight stop. If he had not received a spinal cord injury, he would likely have killed Agent Mireles who would then have been holding an empty revolver out in the open. The FBI was concerned with stopping power when one of their agents managed to score multiple hits with a .357 Magnum revolver at point blank range. Granted, it was loaded with .38 +P, but would the results have been any different with an extra 100 foot pounds of force behind the bullets? Probably not.

If the FBI was at all sincere about stopping power, they'd quit worrying about handguns with slightly more powerful cartridges and start thinking about using carbines or rifles- and apparently some of the agents did think about that. They were simply bested by well-trained men who were motivated to continue fighting even after receiving fatal wounds. Neither Platt nor Matix were on drugs or particularly large and powerful, just willing and capable of fighting, which they did until they were physically unable to do so.

If all of the agents had been armed with controllable high capacity handguns they would have put more rounds on target in a shorter time interval and likely stopped the fight faster. If stopping power was a concern, all of them should have been carrying carbines or rifles. The other agents in stakeout vehicles had M16's, which begs the question; If they thought they might need M16's to arrest or stop Platt and Matix, why wasn't every agent armed with a M16? .223 was pretty effective in Platt's hands and the nasty results of being shot with it were pretty well known to the military.

I concluded from all of that that it's better to have a carbine or rifle if you know you're going to a gunfight, not that you need a more powerful handgun. Given how violent the two were, what were the odds of a gunfight?
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Old 08-03-2013, 01:01 PM   #99
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your best bet is multiple rounds on target as fast as possible

This!!!

This is why you must constantly practice your draw, sight alignment and trigger control. Dozens of times, every single day with this kind of dry fire practice.
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Old 08-03-2013, 02:01 PM   #100
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What if you had been in a dark Colorado theater when the massacre started, and you only had a 38 revolver? Would that be enough to stop what happened ?, or only angry the attacker and open up yourself as a target?

In our CC classes regulated by the state, we teach two shots per draw of the handgun. In a real life shoot out, that could be one more than necessary, or not enough.

I retired a Star PD (1911 style) many years ago, and went with a Glock for one primary reason: Capacity. Fifteen round mags, added plus 2 floor plates and one in the chamber, with two additional mags ment I was well armed. I recently added many more mags, and switched to plus 5 floor plates.

My ankle holster has 18 rounds of 9mm + P + in a Beretta PX4 Storm Sub Compact. I alternate that with a Glock 23c with a plus 2 floor plate giving me 16 rounds.

School shootings, Van Mar shooting, Netherlands shooting (89 people killed?) FBI shootouts, LA shootouts, and my government putting thousands of guns on the Fast and Furious streets in drug dealer hands, not to mention purchasing 2 billion rounds of ammo.

My tiny arsenal of guns and ammo pales in comparison. I am not comfortable with one 1911 and one or two magazines. Not in today's political winds, not with 100,000 armed gang members in one Midwestern city alone.

One poster wants stats. Open any news app on your smart phone, and the stories of violence never end.

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