If somebody is getting beat or hurt and your armed what would you do? - Page 15
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:15 AM   #141
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in any SD/HD situation, you never shoot to kill or to wound, simply to stop a threat.
I started typing something to respond to this, but then I reread it and because it's difficult to determine what exactly you meant by it by reading a post vs hearing it spoken in person. Natural vocal inflection can drastically change the meaning of certain sentence flow. I get what you mean. Cheers.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:22 AM   #142
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What is the difference between shooting to "stopping a threat" vs shooting to kill/wound? The way I see it, if you shoot, one of three things will happen. Either the target will be wounded, killed, or you will miss entirely.
Your intentions are the difference. Shooting to stop the threat means you do not intend for the person to live anymore than you intend for them to do. You are simply pulling the trigger to save your own life, not end the other.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:26 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Axxe55

that is pretty much dependent upon which state a person lives in and the laws in that state. read some of my past posts in this thread. these are simply how i feel and would respond and not advice or even a suggestion for others to follow. i have my own conscience and ethics to abide by and what i feel i should do. more to the point what i can do legally in the state of Texas. i can use deadly force in the defence of even a complete stranger if their life is in mortal danger. not every state allows that.
I think it was taught in our CWP course here in SC that if you have a CWP and are carrying, you are legally obligated to intervene in these types of situations.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:31 AM   #144
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I think it was taught in our CWP course here in SC that if you have a CWP and are carrying, you are legally obligated to intervene in these types of situations.
personally for me, it's not about legal obligation, but a moral and ethical obligation owed to other people from myself. i look at what would i expect or want from others if i were the one being assaulted. i look at how can i face myself, for doing everything within my power.

i can't tell others what to do in a situation like this. these are simply my own choices i have made, and waht i feel is right and moral for myself. simply sharing my reasons and viewpoints and will allow others to make their own decisions on these types of matters.
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Old 07-31-2013, 05:36 AM   #145
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I think it was taught in our CWP course here in SC that if you have a CWP and are carrying, you are legally obligated to intervene in these types of situations.
As much as I'm against a centralized government, it would be so much easier if every state had the same gun laws. I live in Washington, and the gun laws are filled with so much red tape and legal jargon, I have no idea what I can and can't do, and what my legal obligations are.
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Old 07-31-2013, 07:55 AM   #146
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That really clears things up. Thanks.
If this is the case, lets go back to the original question. If someone else is getting beaten or hurt, then it would never be justified for a bystander to open fire. Correct?

Axxe touched on the ethical part of it - sometimes you just can't watch someone get killed. The legal side of it depends on your state and local laws. In Ohio, and obviously Axxe's state of Texas, we are allowed to defend anyone ELSE other than ourselves that are legally allowed to defend themselves. This is a little sticky, because if a person is in the middle of committing a felony, I am NOT allowed to defend them. However, most states do not allow shooting at a fleeing felon (act is over and he is leaving the scene) so in that case the violence (the beating) being perpetrated is still illegal and allowed to be stopped.

The more you understand the totality of the circumstance (you witnessed it all or saw it on closed-circuit security camera), the better you are able to make the decision to act. To be perfectly fair, the OPs original post, as described with no further details, would probably constitute a legal "grey-area" when deciding to pull a gun. That is why many answers were to call 911, verbally engage by saying "STOP! Police are on the way," and then only drawing if the man with bat turned his aggression on the armed person, who would be fully allowed to defend himself against a bat attack with his personal weapon.
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Old 07-31-2013, 08:20 AM   #147
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As much as I'm against a centralized government, it would be so much easier if every state had the same gun laws. I live in Washington, and the gun laws are filled with so much red tape and legal jargon, I have no idea what I can and can't do, and what my legal obligations are.
I believe I found a site that puts your state laws in plain English here. I hope that helps.
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Old 07-31-2013, 12:54 PM   #148
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That really clears things up. Thanks.
If this is the case, lets go back to the original question. If someone else is getting beaten or hurt, then it would never be justified for a bystander to open fire. Correct?
Actually varies from state to state. In Oklahoma, the law says deadly force is justified in defense of self or another. In practice, this leaves the judgment call up to the CCW permit holder. That judgment call basically must answer the question "Would a reasonable person in the same situation believe that deadly force was necessary to avoid death or grievous injury?"

Use of deadly force has consequences far beyond the actual act. Legal situations (like Zimmerman) can develop. Civil suits by family of the deceased or by bystanders who felt endangered by how you handled the situation are possible. Personal emotional trauma is also likely, both self-guilt and others perception of you. Others labeling you as a "killer" can have devastating effects on you or your family.

Before you start carrying a gun, you should think through some of these issues. You need to count the cost in all areas: financial, emotional, reputation, family, for starters. Are you willing to pay that price for someone you don't know? Are you willing to pay that price for someone that you DO know? How well do you need to know them? You should think through these kinds of things before you find yourself in the position of needing to know the answers. Because there is all too little time available when the situation arises.
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Old 07-31-2013, 01:06 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Shootnscoot View Post
As much as I'm against a centralized government, it would be so much easier if every state had the same gun laws. I live in Washington, and the gun laws are filled with so much red tape and legal jargon, I have no idea what I can and can't do, and what my legal obligations are.
In this situation you are taking a big risk carrying a gun. You need to learn what you can or can't do, where you can or can't go, etc. You need to know what your legal obligations are. Are you required to intervene as one poster suggested was the law in SC? Are you required to NOT intervene as another poster suggested was law in his state? Are there limitations on who you can defend?

You may choose to act differently than the law allows, but you should at least know the nature of that choice.

I agree with you that things would be better with uniform laws regarding the use of firearms. Traffic laws are pretty uniform across the country. I don't think any states refuse to recognize a drivers license from any other particular state based on the other states speed limits, for example. National reciprocity of firearm permits should also exist.
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Old 07-31-2013, 03:39 PM   #150
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Jim, i live in a county that is about 27,000 in population with the largest city having about 18,000 in population. the county sheriffs office has about 20 officers, we have about 8 state troopers that work the county, the large city has about 40 officers an then we have about 5 constables. plus a few reserve officers. so lets say an even 80 total officers divided by 27,000 people, equals 337.5 per officer! 337.5 to 1 ratio! that's if all were working 24/7 which is totally impossible. by the numbers, LEO's are just way outnumbered. then, the sheer size of our county and that i live in avery rural part of the county, response time to my location could be 20 minutes or more.

this is exactly why the citizens in any given city or town need to be proactive in setting up community watches and reporting criminal behaviour as much as possible. simple fact is that LE can't be everywhere, because it's just not possible. we as citizens can be their other sets of eyes and ears and helping them do their jobs.
I guess the 'new guy' did not read my posts, too bad.
The local law here is much the same as where you are but not nearly as well staffed. But compared to my experience in CSPD where most shifts we literally went for one call to the next and most of the time had to get chow through a drive through while enroute to the next call. The last 10 to 15 years on the job was no fun, very stressful! I worked as the Patrol Commander here for about 6 months after we got a newly elect Sheriff, a friend of mine, and the comparison of the CFS and CC from my time in CSPD to here is ridiculous. I would handle more CFS and CC in a few days then most officers/deputies would in a few months. The problem here is the deputies are task with serving civil papers and this accounts for most of their 'patrol' time.
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