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-   -   How good are Americans at using foreign weapons? (http://www.firearmstalk.com/forums/f55/how-good-americans-using-foreign-weapons-103983/)

Mark_Van_Goth 02-13-2014 06:17 PM

How good are Americans at using foreign weapons?
 
I have read and many articles,watched many videos and heard many stories about it.So now I'm wondering:How many American knows how to operate and maintain foreing weapons(Foreing=Weapons in use in other countries by the police and the military)?How many of us would be able to pick up an enemy/criminal weapon effectively operate and, if necessary, maintain it while in combat/on duty/in service?
They often say that "American guys don't know anything about foreing weapons and rely only on the American ones".Is it false or true?

The most common weapons were and are:
-AKM and its derivatives(Assault rifles)
-FAL
-G3
-G36
-FAMAS
-F2000
-VEPR
-GALIL
-AK74 and its derivatives(assault rifles)
-PKM series
-RPD
-SKS
-MG3
-HK MP5
-RK 62
-RPG
-Dragunov
-Zastava M76
-SIG 556
-UZI(Standard, Mini and micro)
-Steyr AUG
-Vz. 61 skorpion
-Vz. 58
-Sten
-Bren
-Smle
-Mauser 98 & 24
-Luger
-Mauser C96
-Mosin Nagant
-Sterling SMG
-SA 80

For those who are wondering what I mean with "effectively operate and maintain".
1)BASIC KNOWLEDGE
The shooter is able to aim,shoot, reload(standard reload) and to fix a malfunction(missfeeding, double feed, missfiring, ejection failure,etc) but is not really sure about what he is doing
2)STANDARD KNOWLEDGE
The shooter is able to aim, shoot, reload(at least standard reloads), fix a malfunction, clean the weapon as it would be the standard service rifle.
3)ADVANCED KNOWLEDGE
The shooter is able to aim, shoot, reload(Standard,tactical, emergency), fix a malfunction, clean the weapon as fast and so confidently as a SPECOPS specialist.He knows every secret about the weapon he is using-including how to take advantage from it while abusing it(using it in an uncommon way).
4)THE "GOD OF WAR"
it doesn't matters whay you put in his hand-he knows how to use the majority of the weapons aroung the world.He was trained by several specialist from USMC, Spetnaz,Mossad,etc.If it exists, he knows how to use it or will quickly figure out how to use it.

mountainman13 02-13-2014 06:30 PM

I've yet to find a gun that I couldn't figure out how to operate, disassemble and reassemble. My first experience with a nambu was a box o' gun.

better judged by twelve than carried by six.

seancslaughter 02-13-2014 06:44 PM

if you are talking about the US Military guys it is generally taboo to use foreign weapons unless its a life or death situation. If you have PVT. Joe Snuffy the unit supply guy he probably knows his M16 and thats about it maybe if your lucky he might know and M249. An Infantryman will know dang near every American weapon in his unit from an M9 up to crew served and will possibly have familiarization with some enemy weapons in the AK family and maybe makarovs and tokerovs. Guys in positions where they get to go train with foreign military like some Airborne soldiers and Rangers will usually have to hump around the host countries weapons while assigned there and will become proficient with them as much as what they carry when assigned to there unit. Now the Spec Ops guys depending on the job they have will be damn near proficient with anything you put in his hands, but the Spec Ops Weapons SGT will be an expert with all of them. Now if your just talking regular Joe the Plumber American citizen the level of proficiency is an individual choice from rabid anti gunners all the way up to the guy who can built anything from scratch and operate it expertly blindfolded.

chloeshooter 02-13-2014 06:53 PM

I have Russian Mosin Nagants, a Romanian SKS and a few Czech CZ Military/Police pistols (these are not on your list but should be). All Eastern Block designs and manufacture.

IMHO these weapons are less complicated and easier to take down and operate than American firearms. In many cases they have to be. Eastern block countries have historically needed to build firearms that last out of necessity. Manufacturing processes needed to be simpler and hence designs are typically straight forward and no BS. When I look at the simplicity of the SKS I own and AK's I have examined, then compared to the AR15 platform, for sure the ARs are a more elegant design but at the same time not as rugged.

In the case of CZ pistols, these shoot better than any American made handguns I have ever fired. A tad heavy but balls-on accurate and dependable to the point that I marvel every time I go to the range. I'd put my CZ 75 up against any 9mm we have ever made in the states for dependability and accuracy.

Here is an interesting story that properly contrasts the difference between Western and Eastern-bloc thinking: In the 1960's, during the space race, the US spent over a million 1960's dollars developing a pressurized writing pen as the ball-point pen did not work in zero gravity. At the end of the day, a lot of money was spent and you still had a pen that ran out of ink

The Russian's solution?

a pencil

Mark_Van_Goth 02-13-2014 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seancslaughter (Post 1505849)
if you are talking about the US Military guys it is generally taboo to use foreign weapons unless its a life or death situation. If you have PVT. Joe Snuffy the unit supply guy he probably knows his M16 and thats about it maybe if your lucky he might know and M249. An Infantryman will know dang near every American weapon in his unit from an M9 up to crew served and will possibly have familiarization with some enemy weapons in the AK family and maybe makarovs and tokerovs. Guys in positions where they get to go train with foreign military like some Airborne soldiers and Rangers will usually have to hump around the host countries weapons while assigned there and will become proficient with them as much as what they carry when assigned to there unit. Now the Spec Ops guys depending on the job they have will be damn near proficient with anything you put in his hands, but the Spec Ops Weapons SGT will be an expert with all of them. Now if your just talking regular Joe the Plumber American citizen the level of proficiency is an individual choice from rabid anti gunners all the way up to the guy who can built anything from scratch and operate it expertly blindfolded.

Nice answer.I was talking about the police officer(Including the SWAT and other tactical response teams),the military(From the Army to the Seals, Rangers, etc) and the average citizen.
My personal experience(I'll be honest)
-AKM and its derivatives(Assault rifles)-ADVANCED-I've shot almost all variants
-FAL-Basic-I know how to operate it, but not how to disassemble and how to maintain it properly
-G3-STANDARD-It is a good friend of mine
-G36-STANDARD-Even a kid would be able to use it
-FAMAS-BASIC-I HATE IT
-F2000-BASIC-Shi**y weapon.Useless, hate it more than FAMAS
-VEPR-STANDARD-Nice bullpup conversion
-GALIL-STANDARD-I LOVE IT!!!!
-AK74 and its derivatives(assault rifles)-STANDARD-The Sneaky little brother of the 47
-PKM series-STANDARD-Used M84 during Yugo war
-RPD-STANDARD-Used during Yugo war
-SKS-ADVANCED-M59/66A1...an old friend
-MG3-ADVANCED-We called the M53 "Šarac"(Sharaz)
-HK MP5-ADVANCED-Everlasting Classic
-RK 62-STANDARD-"Westernisation" of the AK
-RPG-STANDARD-everyone can use it
-Dragunov-STANDARD-Sweet......my favorite one
-Zastava M76-ADVANCED-Corretion:This is my favorite one!!!
-SIG 556-STANDARD-The swiss interpretation of an AK...really well made!
-UZI(Standard, Mini and micro)-ADVANCED-Still a badass weapon...easy to conceal
-Steyr AUG-BASIC-Never liked it...need more training-btw:I have bullpups
-Vz. 61 skorpion-ADVANCED-Compact but nasty...one of the prefered weapons by the paramilitary during YW
-Vz. 58-ADVANCED-One of the finest 7,62x39 rifles ever made!!!

Mark_Van_Goth 02-13-2014 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chloeshooter (Post 1505854)
I have Russian Mosin Nagants, a Romanian SKS and a few Czech CZ Military/Police pistols (these are not on your list but should be). All Eastern Block designs and manufacture.

IMHO these weapons are less complicated and easier to take down and operate than American firearms. In many cases they have to be. Eastern block countries have historically needed to build firearms that last out of necessity. Manufacturing processes needed to be simpler and hence designs are typically straight forward and no BS. When I look at the simplicity of the SKS I own and AK's I have examined, then compared to the AR15 platform, for sure the ARs are a more elegant design but at the same time not as rugged.

In the case of CZ pistols, these shoot better than any American made handguns I have ever fired. A tad heavy but balls-on accurate and dependable to the point that I marvel every time I go to the range. I'd put my CZ 75 up against any 9mm we have ever made in the states for dependability and accuracy.

Here is an interesting story that properly contrasts the difference between Western and Eastern-bloc thinking: In the 1960's, during the space race, the US spent over a million 1960's dollars developing a pressurized writing pen as the ball-point pen did not work in zero gravity. At the end of the day, a lot of money was spent and you still had a pen that ran out of ink

The Russian's solution?

a pencil

CZ pistols....Checz knows how to build good weapons...The model 75 would not be my first choice...but only an idiot would say that it is not well made(I prefer a Walther P88 or a Zastava M54+).
And yes...American weapons are much more "complicated"(somebody would say "better designed and engineered").Would you believe that some private us marines doesn't even know where is the safety lever on an AK?Did you know that some idiots try to hit the targets an AK 47 at 200-250m(220-275yds) while shooting full-auto)?Or that they don't even know how to field strip and AK?

Partially I can understand this....I knew almost nothing about the AR15 platform until I moved/relocated to the USA...I had very little training with it.

danf_fl 02-13-2014 07:47 PM

Add Sten, RPG, CZ.

And I even know how to foreign correctly! 4-N

Mark_Van_Goth 02-13-2014 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danf_fl (Post 1505886)
Add Sten, RPG, CZ.

And I even know how to foreign correctly! 4-N

Adde a couple more rifles that are still seen on the battlefield

c3shooter 02-13-2014 07:57 PM

Not a lot of street criminals here with RPGs. As far as anyone can use-
1. What happens if you fire one from the left shoulder?
2. 10 mph wind from right to left. Target at 300 meters. For windage, do you hold to the right or left of target, and why?

SSGN_Doc 02-13-2014 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Van_Goth (Post 1505865)
Nice answer.I was talking about the police officer(Including the SWAT and other tactical response teams),the military(From the Army to the Seals, Rangers, etc) and the average citizen.
My personal experience(I'll be honest)
-AKM and its derivatives(Assault rifles)-ADVANCED-I've shot almost all variants
-FAL-Basic-I know how to operate it, but not how to disassemble and how to maintain it properly
-G3-STANDARD-It is a good friend of mine
-G36-STANDARD-Even a kid would be able to use it
-FAMAS-BASIC-I HATE IT
-F2000-BASIC-Shi**y weapon.Useless, hate it more than FAMAS
-VEPR-STANDARD-Nice bullpup conversion
-GALIL-STANDARD-I LOVE IT!!!!
-AK74 and its derivatives(assault rifles)-STANDARD-The Sneaky little brother of the 47
-PKM series-STANDARD-Used M84 during Yugo war
-RPD-STANDARD-Used during Yugo war
-SKS-ADVANCED-M59/66A1...an old friend
-MG3-ADVANCED-We called the M53 "Šarac"(Sharaz)
-HK MP5-ADVANCED-Everlasting Classic
-RK 62-STANDARD-"Westernisation" of the AK
-RPG-STANDARD-everyone can use it
-Dragunov-STANDARD-Sweet......my favorite one
-Zastava M76-ADVANCED-Corretion:This is my favorite one!!!
-SIG 556-STANDARD-The swiss interpretation of an AK...really well made!
-UZI(Standard, Mini and micro)-ADVANCED-Still a badass weapon...easy to conceal
-Steyr AUG-BASIC-Never liked it...need more training-btw:I have bullpups
-Vz. 61 skorpion-ADVANCED-Compact but nasty...one of the prefered weapons by the paramilitary during YW
-Vz. 58-ADVANCED-One of the finest 7,62x39 rifles ever made!!!

-AKM-VEPR-GALIL-AK74-RK 62-Zastava M76-SIG 556- Are all so similar that they may as well be considered variations of the same basic platform.

The Dragunov is very similar as well with the exception of the gas system, and the SKS and VZ58 are not that far off, that mastery of the above guns would take much effort to get a basic understanding of.

As medical personnel I only have knowledge of crew served weapons that I took the initiative to get trained on, So, the M60, Mk43 and Mk46 and M2 are about all I have familiarization with. No real exposure to operation of foreign crew served, or belt fed weapons.

Most everything else on teh list I've encountered at full auto shoots, familiarization firings, or just other guys at the range, in semi-auto form. Basic principles of operation of most of these platforms are pretty similar and would not require a genius to figure out the basic maintenence requirements. (again refering to the non crew served weapons.)


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