How About A Rattlesnake Defense Strategy? - Page 3
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:16 PM   #21
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Nobody with a healthy brain wants to kill someone even if they are trying to kill them, its not something you can just "forgetaboutit" after the fact. The police carry tazers and plastic bullets to deal with non lethal offenders because they can, we on the other hand dont carry options, wear a flack vest or have the other backup a police officer has. While I can see where AR10 is coming from, I still have to disagree with the idea that something that makes you fear for life and limb deserves a warning. Criminals dont have a conscience, they only care about getting away with their crime, your warning shot wont be returned with blank fire by them if they have a gun, your getting lead in return.

Its also worthy of restating the fact that many weapons will not cycle without sufficient blowback from the compression created by the projectile as it travels down the barrel. Larger loads in the blank my negate that but you better test that before you have to try it in reality. Ive fired a 10,000 blanks if Ive fired one, mostly in m16's; they are inherently unreliable even with a good blank adapter; great for training but I would not stake my life on them ever.

In an SD scenario where imminent danger is unquestionable (it should be if your drawing your weapon), repelling the offender immediately and effectively is most important. You could aim for a non kill shot (better be really good), or toss non lethal yet impactful fodder that causes agony but not death (Rocksalt, darts), but throwing air at them seems to be more risky than "Im afraid for my life" demands.

Carrying is a right and a responsibility, I dont carry but if I did, I would have to accept the reality of what Im doing and the onerous responsibility of using it appropriately. After-all, as Lynard Skynard sang back in the day, "Handguns are made for killing, they aint no good for nothin else"...
I was hovering on the like button all the way up to your last sentence. You have no idea how much I wish you hadn't put that in there. Other than that, it was a good post. Well done.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:25 PM   #22
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AR10, I just thought of another reason why this may be a bad idea. If you fire a blank with the idea of scaring off your attacker the next indicated action would be waiting to see if it worked. To me that means that in what better be a life or death situation your next step is a voluntary cease fire. I just can't justify that in my mind. My life is on the line, or I wouldn't be shooting, and now I have to pause to see if he runs or continues his attack? Based on self-preservation instinct alone I just can't see that happening.

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Old 07-10-2013, 12:26 PM   #23
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Empty chamber carry is a bad idea, in your opinion. Tell me, are you a firearms safety trainer? Are you a LEO ? Or just a guy with opinions?

As a firearms instructor, my job is to keep my students safe. Out of harms way. That is for external threats, and internal ones as well.

This thread was placed here to brainstorm with gun owners, about one possibility of concealed carry I had never heard talked about anywhere.

Seatbelts were once ridiculed, in some circles, they still are.

Glock owners manual forbids clambering a round for concealed carry by retail purchasers of their product. Stern warning about doing so. Beretta also, likely other gun manufacturers as well.

Not saying a blank should be tossed in the air like a tap on the horn. Anytime a gun is pulled, that is pretty serious. Only thing more serious, would be a way to spare life and limb if at all possible.

I have concealed carried over thirty years. I have owned hundreds of firearms. Was an ffl dealer many years. I was shooting guns before I was ridding a bicycle. I anf your am an NRA Endowment Life member, my wife also. Life GOA as well.

One thing I have never done is shoot someone. Hope I never do.

I think we as a group (gun owners) have seen way to many Rambo movies. Black hawk down, white house down, die hard, heat, Bonnie and Clyde. Lets not forget Duke, good ole John Wayne.

Life is not Hollywood.
And your point to all this ramble?? I'm a human being doing the best I know how to protect my family and loved ones!! And the most efficient way to do that is being armed and ready to defend with a fully loaded magazine and one chambered!! If you want to walk around with a slower method to do the same, I respect your choice, takes close to a second to chamber a round!! A second, that could very well be the difference in living or dying!! I don't need know fancy training to know the quickest method from A to B what happen to good ole, God given Common Sense?
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:38 PM   #24
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And your point to all this ramble?? I'm a human being doing the best I know how to protect my family and loved ones!! And the most efficient way to do that is being armed and ready to defend with a fully loaded magazine and one chambered!! If you want to walk around with a slower method to do the same, I respect your choice, takes close to a second to chamber a round!! A second, that could very well be the difference in living or dying!! I don't need know fancy training to know the quickest method from A to B what happen to good ole, God given Common Sense?
There was a time I could consistently fire 12 rounds out of a six shot revolver in an average of 11 seconds loading loose rounds out of my pocket. That's an average of 0.91 seconds a round firing double action. At the distance we used for this drill (7 yards) I never missed the K5 area. That one second you mentioned is a very long time when people are shooting at you. If it's a skilled aggressor that one second could be the rest of your life.

No matter what I carry I carry a round ready to go. If I don't consider a firearm/holster combination safe to carry in this way I don't carry it.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:39 PM   #25
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And your point to all this ramble?? I'm a human being doing the best I know how to protect my family and loved ones!! And the most efficient way to do that is being armed and ready to defend with a fully loaded magazine and one chambered!! If you want to walk around with a slower method to do the same, I respect your choice, takes close to a second to chamber a round!! A second, that could very well be the difference in living or dying!! I don't need know fancy training to know the quickest method from A to B what happen to good ole, God given Common Sense?
For real!! What ever happened to using our brains?? I'm not discouraging training, but some people think the need trained to tie there shoes!! Most of the time we know the answers we just need people to validate our common sense, I guess!?
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:04 PM   #26
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It seems like adding a potentially lethal step in the manual of arms for the CCW holder.

Instead of drawing and aiming and firing and having a good chance of operation, the carrier wil draw, fire a blank, have to cycle the slide, to get to a live round, hope the blank fully extracts. And then be able to apply deadly force. Also , the blank may still be deadly force, as they have killed people when fired to close. The paper wad is dangerous at contact distance, and song lawyer would bring it up. Though they can kill up close it is not predictable enough to rely on for stopping an attack.

The lack of predictability in performance or reaction effect from an attacker, along with adding an extra step seems like it would complicate an already stressful and confusing situation for most crime victims.

It seems an empty chamber introduces fewer variables. A loaded chamber with live rounds, even fewer variables. I prefer the idea if simple, when under stress. If the introduction of drawing and pointing a gun at someone is not a deterrent, and often the first shot and hit is not a deterrent, then I think a blank is just an extra step that has more potential to work against the defender than help.

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Old 07-10-2013, 01:36 PM   #27
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Can definitely see the advantages in a trial that you mentioned, as we have seen several times in SD cases when JHP's are used, they are usually picked at by an overly enthusiastic DA, saying since the gun was loaded with them, you INTENDED to cause grave injury...and other such asshattery...

:
Why would anyone carry a gun without the intention of causing grave injury. That is what a gun does. That is how it stops the threat.
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:50 PM   #28
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Many gun manufacturers put in their manual not to put a round in the chamber until you are ready to fire. That is because they don't want to be sued by all the idiot Rambos running around accidentally shooting themselves. A properly maintaned and serviced modern weapon is not an issue to carry a round in the chamber.

I am surprised that a firearms instructor would be suggesting that someone should consider carrying a blank in the chamber. All of the instructors I know,( I know quite a few) teach safe handling of firearms with real ammo.

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Old 07-10-2013, 02:56 PM   #29
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Empty chamber carry is a bad idea, in your opinion. Tell me, are you a firearms safety trainer? Are you a LEO ? Or just a guy with opinions?
You hanging a shingle the says "Firearms Instructor" doesn't suddenly render differing opinions invalid. What rarefied qualifications would be considered adequate to discuss the matter as an equal? Are the qualifications required to disagree the same as those should we agree?
FWIW, a "Guy with an opinion" should not be ridiculed. Much that is considered solid doctrine today started as "some guy's" opinion.
And yes, I believe that carrying w/ an empty chamber is fear response to a lack of proficiency/confidence.

As a firearms instructor, my job is to keep my students safe. Out of harms way. That is for external threats, and internal ones as well. Good on you.

This thread was placed here to brainstorm with gun owners, about one possibility of concealed carry I had never heard talked about anywhere.
Use of blanks/warning shots has occasionally come up in other forums. Judging by the arrest history of people firing warning shots, I have decided, for my needs, while it may be a solution to any number of problems. Self defense isn't one of them.


Seat belts were once ridiculed, in some circles, they still are. Yeah, and tobacco was not considered a hazardous, Cocaine was a wonder drug, democrats were considered the party of the regular folk, and Govt health care was considered the way forward by many. Live & learn. FWIW, I'm certain that I can believe that the Earth is, in fact, round and still disagree about blanks as a tool for SD.

Glock owners manual forbids clambering a round for concealed carry by retail purchasers of their product. Stern warning about doing so. Beretta also, likely other gun manufacturers as well.
By that I assume that Govt trained Operatives are considered trained well enough to carry with a chambered round, while us retail posers...er I mean purchasers, could never achieve that level of skill and expertise?
Every manual I can locate states that I shouldn't use reloads either.
And yet, I have a couple pistols that have never fired factory ammo. I have so far lived to tell about it. If you read the owners manual of your car, you might find you've violated any number of legal department warnings. Have you ever exceeded the posted speed limit?

Not saying a blank should be tossed in the air like a tap on the horn. Anytime a gun is pulled, that is pretty serious. Only thing more serious, would be a way to spare life and limb if at all possible.
I would argue that a blank has no place in serious self defense.
It's one more variable to add complication, while not actually having a provable benefit.

I have concealed carried over thirty years. I have owned hundreds of firearms. Was an ffl dealer many years. I was shooting guns before I was ridding a bicycle. I am an NRA Endowment Life member, my wife also. Life GOA as well.
While admirable, those aren't really, in and of themselves, qualifications for altering the SD paradigm. I've driven for many years, in many different countries without incident. That, by itself doesn't make me ready for starting grid at Le Mans.

One thing I have never done is shoot someone. Hope I never do. Ditto.

I think we as a group (gun owners) have seen way to many Rambo movies. Black hawk down, white house down, die hard, heat, Bonnie and Clyde. Lets not forget Duke, good ole John Wayne. Life is not Hollywood.
I've seen Scooby Doo cartoons as well, does that make me a wanna-be paranormal investigator? Belittling your target audience, because they disagree is not the best way to move the discussion forward. Using the same broad brush as those who would take our guns away? Not cool. So we're just a bunch of trigger happy hicks, cowboys and adolescents are we?
........................
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Old 07-10-2013, 05:16 PM   #30
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........................
So which is faster to bring into action, if a possible life threaten situation should develop? A blank or empty chamber or a chambered weapon? Which ever one is faster that's my choice!! If speed and reaction time is not a big player in conceal carry than maybe telling BG to hold up on his bad intention so you can get your firearm in a "ready to fire" mode would be best!! Cause I guarantee he(BG) is chambered and ready to do harm!! I want ever advantage I can get, to defend my life! If that wasn't true, why would I take on the responsibility to carry in the first place? Once the **** hits the fan it's to late to get that split second back that Was wasted with an unnecessary added step! Does that make sense to anyone but me?????
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