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Old 05-29-2008, 10:54 PM   #11
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It absolutley offends and scrares me to have a firearm pointed at me. I ALWAYS follow the rule that a firearm is ALWAYS loaded. I always treat them as such and expect others near me to do the same.

I couldn't agree more 100% it is dangerous and stupid to point a pistol or revolver or shotgun or rifle whether it is loaded or not at anyone or anything
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Old 05-30-2008, 02:40 AM   #12
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I have one and only one person in the world it never bothers me to have him point a gun at me and that is because we grew up together and we know each has checked the chamber before handling it .

Don't misunderstand me here , this isn't something we make a habit of or horse play at doing but it has happened many times when we are showing each other newly acquired guns while sitting at a table and examining them .

When a gun is handed over we both have the long ingrained habit of checking the chamber with the gun pointed in a safe direction and neither has ever handed the other a loaded weapon nor would we ever load the weapon unless on a range or about to put away a weapon that is kept loaded for a purpose .

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Old 05-30-2008, 11:43 AM   #13
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I have one and only one person in the world it never bothers me to have him point a gun at me and that is because we grew up together and we know each has checked the chamber before handling it. ....
Sorry, that just doesn't wash! One night after dinner at his house one of my (former) best friends and shooting buddies insisted on showing me his brand new Model G-19. I kept telling him that it was late; I was tired; and the last thing I cared about was seeing another new gun; but, he insisted. So, downstairs, to his workshop we went.

He opened a Glock clamshell case and removed a new G-19. There was no magazine in the pistol. As he began to raise the gun to show it to me he, also, began to point the muzzle directly at my face. Just before the muzzle was aimed straight at the end of my nose, I moved my head off the muzzle's bore axis and, without being a nice guy about it, forcibly disarmed him.

The guy was furious - furious! He loudly cursed me out in no uncertain terms so that the women upstairs could hear him yelling. Then he reminded me that he is arthritic, and that I had caused his hand and arm to ache.

I reminded him that he had attempted to point the muzzle of his brand new G-19 direct at my nose! He screamed at me; 'What, the Hell, is the matter with you?' 'You know the gun isn't loaded!' Well .... before I reminded him that THE GUN IS ALWAYS LOADED! I remembered that I had possession of his pistol; so I held it out over his workbench, pointed away from us, and racked the slide.

Yup, there it was! A bright 'n shiny 115 grain FMJ round came bouncing out and rolled along the top of his workbench! For one brief moment, the guy seemed to flinch; then, he looked down at his shoes and didn't say a word. After a long pregnant pause he looked up at me again, shrugged his shoulders, and said just one word: 'Embarrassing!'

I looked back at him with what must have been a combination of both considerable relief and extreme disgust on my face. (The guy owned a gun store!)

He told me that 9 mm round must have been inadvertently left chambered when he had removed a loaded magazine earlier in the day. Like I gave a damn! As things turned out, I was unable to live with what he had done; and, I didn't miss the fact that he had neglected to apologize. That evening was the beginning of the end to our longstanding friendship.

Years of experience on the firing line have taught me that if someone - anyone - is doing something dangerous with a weapon, then, the only correct response is to immediately order him to stop, tell him what he did wrong, and demand that he never do it again. If the offender comes back at you, 'with attitude' then immediately separate either him, or yourself from what has to be a potentially very dangerous situation.

Even one mistake with a firearm can be one mistake too many! If you have a friend who's careless with guns, then, you're hanging around with the wrong person. As in combat pistolcraft, you never want to be the one who is forced to react. Among friends, it's always Cooper's Four Safety Rules; or, it's no rules at all.
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Old 05-30-2008, 11:22 PM   #14
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G21.45 I'm sorry you call idiots friends .

I bet this person you call a friend is a person I would define as a very friendly acquaintance someone you met later in life and became friendly with .

I grew up with the one person I consider a true friend and we learned gun safety together and did our first hunting together .

When one of us had removed the gun from the clamshell case it would have been muzzle down not pointed at the other and the slide would have been immediately retracted for a chamber check then it would have been handed over butt first and then had the chamber checked again . It is a ritual we have had for 30+ years . After the second check then we proceed with examination and dry firing and congratulations on the acquisition etc. we both long ago learned there is no reason to have ammo present for all of this and IF the gun had started out loaded any and all ammo is immediately set aside and not touched .

As far as I'm concerned the "Every gun is loaded" is just BS for people who despite training to know better ignore that training and begin handling guns without checking them . Your "friend" Assumed it was unloaded mine wouldn't .

Gun handling all starts with something much larger , it's called respect , respect for life yours and everyone Else's .

Just as I can handle a knife with someone next to me without cutting them I can also handle a gun without shooting them by always checking the chamber just to make sure .

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Old 05-31-2008, 02:29 PM   #15
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G21.45 I'm sorry you call idiots friends. ....
Big001, I find your post interesting and more thought-provoking that much of what I usually see on the internet. First, I envy you that friendship and the mutual trust you share. Me? While I do have several friends from childhood, I’ve only been able to find that particular level of mutual trust and cooperation with my wife.

Among all the gunmen I’ve met in, say, the past 20 years, well, acquaintances come and acquaintances go. It’s, also, been my general experience that you can trust some people, in some things, for some of the time; but you cannot trust all people, in most things, for all of the time. And, this is especially true of many of the busy public firing lines I frequent.

On a typical weekend I’ll be exposed to every imaginable degree of firearms ability and handling expertise. I’ve found that the best way to keep yourself safe is to insist, to force, everyone to hold themselves to the same high firearm safety standards, and to do so without exception.

Even then, though, accidents can and do happen. Individual perception, like individual health, waxes and wanes. Consequently there is never an acceptable reason to assume that, either, you or your friend is always going to do everything right with a firearm.

Cooper’s #1 Rule is not something that should ever be optional: ‘The gun is always loaded’ should be absorbed into your intellect in the same manner as a (What?) bad habit – You know, the kind of consistent personal reaction like smoking or drinking that you’d love to get rid of, but constantly revert to!

If the brain forgets, then, personal habit should take over! As far as I’m concerned this is the best and only way for anyone who’s around guns all the time to survive life inside a crowd where everybody’s constantly holding and using firearms! If you make an exception for a friend, then, you’ve broken the habit (cut the mental cord so to speak) and no longer have the advantage of being consistent in your physical actions.

With gun handling it pays to always be consistent; and, it’s seldom wise to assume the other guy is going to be as considerate of your own personal wellbeing as you are of his. The hard truth is that he may or may not be. And, then, there are the wise guys; we’ve all got to watch out for them, too, right!
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Old 06-02-2008, 01:06 AM   #16
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Default There is NEVER a good reason to point it at someone!

I have friends I would trust with my life, but if they pointed a weapon at me, I would disarm them, or draw on them. Pointing a weapon at a human is a dangerous act. If you don't wish to kill or maim someone, DO NOT POINT A GUN AT THEM.

Dammit, we ALL should know better!

I went to a gun training class with alleged competent instructors. About 20 minutes into the first lecture, one idiot picked up a .45 clone from a table near the front, removed the magazine and checked the chamber. He then handed it to another "expert" and asked, "Do you agree that it is empty?"
When the other guy said yes, the first idiot takes it back and begins to point the muzzle at students, probably inadvertently, as he described how an auto pistol works. I ducked under the desk and reached to my belt for my Glock, but it was locked in a case in my trunk, per classroom rules.

When everyone in the room looked at me like I was insane, I stood and left the class. I never got an apology or a refund. These guys are DANGEROUS. The local police and sherrif's departments no longer use these guys for training, and one of their friends told me they can't understand why their contract wasn't renewed. I just looked at him and said "TSTL".

"What's that?", he said. I translated: "Too Stupid To Live".

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Old 06-02-2008, 01:34 AM   #17
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.... These guys are DANGEROUS. The local police and sherrif's departments no longer use these guys for training, and one of their friends told me they can't understand why their contract wasn't renewed. I just looked at him and said "TSTL".

"What's that?", he said. I translated: "Too Stupid To Live".
'TSTL' I like that! (And, they're always the ones - Aren't they!)
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Old 06-03-2008, 04:32 AM   #18
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This was a rule I could repeat at the age of 3 ( probably before, but I can't remember), and it is ingrained in me completely to the point where if I watch someone open a revolver, I can see the cylinder, and it is empty, then I watch them close it and hand it to me, I will still open it and check it personally out of habit.
I get EXTREMELY angry if I ever see anyone point a firearm at someone, and if someone did that to me, I don't think it would be just a matter of a friendship ending unless they were complete firearm novices and did not know what they were doing.
i would still be angry, but I could forgive that.
Anyone who knows about guns and points one at me had better watch out! They WILL regret that action.
This is a non negotiable rule.
Familiarity breeds contempt, and people who handle firearms often and get careless get killed.
Only a few years ago an Australian soldier on a peacekeeping mission in East Timor was shot by one of the rifles that had not been cleared correctly before all getting in the APC and they were pointing at each other without thinking about it.
You CANNOT have a firarm accident if it is not pointing at anyone. It is impossible.
That is the way I like it.

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Old 06-04-2008, 12:15 PM   #19
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I agree 100% with everyone here. I have had people in the past point guns at me, give me the old "its not loaded" junk, and then wonder why i got so angry at them. I dont like ANYONE pointing a gun at me no matter who they are.

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Old 06-04-2008, 04:35 PM   #20
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Well I guess it all comes down to a matter of opinion on how to apply the rules of safety and which one is the most important at the moment .

Some think keeping your finger off of the trigger is the most important others where the muzzle is pointed and still others it is knowing and I mean knowing not just thinking the gun is unloaded .

I am one who thinks it is all a bit different depending on the situation . For instance one can't reasonably expect a person to go hunting with an unloaded gun now can we ? In this case rules one and two trump 3 but the problem with rule 1 is when in the hunting field can you ever be 100% certain what a safe direction is ? Are you sure when firing at a deer 25 yards away there isn't a hunter 50 or 75 yards away that you can't see due to heavy brush ? Every year despite proper training there are shotgun accidents due to brush and low flying birds just like happened with Dick Cheney .

While muzzle control is best for hunting how can one when at home doing what is routine dry firing practice be 100% someone isn't in the line of the muzzle 2-3 rooms away ? Fact is you can't , so making sure the weapon is unloaded becomes the most important rule . Even if the gun is pointed at an outside wall someone could be in line actually especially if it is pointed at an outside wall .

Dry firing is a valuable tool to improving ones shooting skills yet despite manufactures warnings of damage to the firing pin I prefer NOT using snap caps , I want that chamber 100% empty without the chance of a mix up between live ammo and dummy ones .

Fact of the matter is if you visit gun stores regularly you will eventually get one pointed at you . It is only natural that people want to shoulder and swing a shotgun or rifle to get the feel for it's balance . I have yet to see a gun shop with a special room to do this in .

Gun store employees behind the counter walk back and forth waiting on customers and regularly get one pointed at them and you don't see them grabbing it away from a customer or drawing down on them do you ?

Gun safety is of the utmost importance but it must be dealt with and applied within the constraints of reality , after all how many of us keep a loaded gun in the home accessable to us ? That is a major no no if you listen to the Politically Correct gangs rhetoric and it violates rule 3 .

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