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Old 08-02-2009, 10:24 PM   #31
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Hydrashok, what was/is your job in the Military, which branch?
When I was active, noticed that the Qualification requirements and training varied widely.
I've had quite a few jobs in the military... I'm MOSQ'd as Admin, Infantry, and Medic. I'm the the Texas National Guard, and I'm on my second tour in Iraq (almost done!) I've also trained troops to go to Iraq on Operation Warrior Trainer. Ran several ranges and conducted a LOT of training.

I've also completed and conducted a lot of training on the civilian side.
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Old 08-03-2009, 01:26 AM   #32
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Chopkick :
It is my understanding that the SPOs were not allowed to wear body armor ( no personal equipment permitted ) and it may be illegal to own body armor in D.C. without a permit ( MD has such a law ).

DC SPOs have all of the authority of a police officer except the right to issue traffic tickets. It isn't just a title.

As far as I can see, the mere fact that Johns was murdered does not mean " someone screwed up ". Suicide attackers normally succeed. Reality again.

Maybe you are able to do your job without taking your eyes off any potential threat, using cover and consealment at all times, and being ready to draw in a blink but the rest of the guards in this country cannot.

We have to check IDs, stare at X-rays, direct visitors, write out visitor IDs, make phone calls and call in radio checks. That's when we aren't distracted by filling out log sheets and reports, taking notes and being inspected by our supervisors on site.

What action, I wonder, would you recommend against an 88-year-old man who approaches you wearing a coat in hot weather ? Remember : Got to be courteous !

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Old 08-03-2009, 05:08 AM   #33
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Well brother you made reference in an earlier post that in DC you have a lot of homeless and I believe mentally unstable people who would wear such clothing in hot weather.
It's quite simple, they don't have any business in a museum or a government Bldg other than a social security office or the VA period. We have the right to refuse service to anyone.
So the answer to your question would be to deny entry. You know, ACCESS CONTROL, our jobs.

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Old 08-04-2009, 12:11 AM   #34
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Chopkick-
In D.C., unlike the old south, we can't simply deny service to anyone. This is fact. The Library of Congress is a major hangout for the homeless because they have a right to access.
The Holocaust Museum is open to the public. Anyone who shows up is assumed to have a reason to see the exhibits. That presents a problem. Even if Mr. Johns had refused to open the door, who is to say that the assailant would not have simply shot people outside the doors ? ( rhetorical question )

Security work is not uniform throughout the country. Some of us operate under unrealistic restrictions.
Finally, if you are guarding something as risky as the Holocaust Museum, my advice to security planners and would-be security planners is to forget about appearances, abandon your fantasies and do something intelligent for once. Don't bring a pistol to a gunfight ; Bring a rifle and a pistol. Don't bet on good radios because you might not have time to make radio calls. Carry the best, plan for the worst, train realistically ( and failing that, use the ICE Course at least ). Shape the immediate environment ; build in cover and concealment, fields of view and fields of fire, surveillance etc.

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Old 08-04-2009, 04:11 PM   #35
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Political Correctness killed another good man. We cannot "profile" potential attackers. We cannot confront a problem. If officers (security or police) actually question someone, we are being heavy handed and biased. It is all so stupid, but the price we pay to live in a "free" society.

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Old 08-04-2009, 06:01 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Rentacop View Post
Maybe you are able to do your job without taking your eyes off any potential threat, using cover and consealment at all times, and being ready to draw in a blink but the rest of the guards in this country cannot.

We have to check IDs, stare at X-rays, direct visitors, write out visitor IDs, make phone calls and call in radio checks. That's when we aren't distracted by filling out log sheets and reports, taking notes and being inspected by our supervisors on site.
It sounds like your boss needs to get your crew a secretary to do the paperwork, so you guys can make sure things are safe/secure. I think this is part of the problem with a lot of law enforcement & security positions. Cops don't have the legs to be good secretaries & i don't want a secretary having to shoot the crazy old nazi coming through the turnstyle behind me. No offense.
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:16 AM   #37
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Orangello-
No offense taken. Maybe I need to clarify something about security in federal buildings : The decision-makers include various agency heads and directors as well as govenment security officials, whose titles include Agency Technical Representative, Physical Security Specialist, Chief of Security etc. FPS has its own Law Enforcement And Security Specialists. You can figure that each of these people is paid over 100K / yr. by the taxpayers. What do they do to earn that money ?

One thing they do is to bank on deterrance, hoping armed guards will scare away the threats. They do not try to insure that the guards can win a gunfight, should one occur.

For some reason, people enjoy snickering about guards who fall asleep (while required to sit still and do nothing) but never mock the royal security officials , whose actions are worthy of the old Benny Hill Show.

One guard confronted a federal official who spied on the guards as she tried to catch them drinking coffee on post. He exclaimed to her, " If you had our job, you'd drink coffee and you'd sleep too. Maybe if you tried to help the guards instead of hurt the guards, things would be better here. "

Another great quote comes from a guard who arrived at the FPS testing center 5 minutes late in D.C. rush hour traffic, only to be turned away and refused a chance to take his written test. The guard said, " You think you have got the greatest police force in the world but you ain't S*IT ! "

I've seen 30 guards wait hours at a range to qualify, only to learn that the FPS inspectors did not show up. No apologies from FPS either.

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Old 08-06-2009, 04:44 AM   #38
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What action, I wonder, would you recommend against an 88-year-old man who approaches you wearing a coat in hot weather ? Remember : Got to be courteous !
I've had to deduce much of what happened by what's been posted in this thread, because I really have no idea what y'all are talking about, or what really happened.

Based on my inferences, it would really be easy for me to preach about how "complacency is the killer" in this case. However, I know that complacency isn't always the killer. It's also easy for me to "armchair quarterback" this scenario by babbling on about "never assume anything" and "always keep your guard up."

If I'm correct, a guard was killed by an 88 year old homeless man in a federal building in Washington D.C. who had a firearm concealed under a coat.

It sounds like the man took the guard by surprise.

I'm sorry to say this, but the fact is, the good guys don't always win. Putting on a uniform, badge, and gun means accepting a risk that you may not come home. It doesn't matter how much training you have, that gun and badge does not make you superman. A man determined enough (or crazy enough) can kill a ninja armed with a gatling gun wearing full body armor.

Cops and security guards get shot... and killed. When it happens, it's not always because of lack of training or a judgment mistake by the officer. It's part of the job... accepting that risk when you clock in.
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Old 08-06-2009, 11:10 AM   #39
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hydrashok-
You are right.

Pardon us for discussing the Holocaust Museum shooting without giving everybody some background. Briefy stated, June 10 an 88-year-old Nazi walked in and fatally shot guard Stephen Tyrone Johns at point blank range with an ancient Winchester Model 6 .22 pump action rifle. The rifle was concealed under a coat.

The killer was not homeless ( I cited homeless people as an example of why his appearance might not set off alarm bells in D.C. ).

Two other guards fired a total of 8 shots at the killer with .38 Specials, striking him once in the face/neck, which stopped him. He survived.

The following link has additional info on the guards' training and experience : Museum Guards Talk About Shooting
From that link :
"Officer Weeks retired after 27 years with D.C. Police, but decided to go back to work at the museum. Officer Mccuiston was with the Marine Corp for five years, and served in the military police and worked for the Norcross Police Department in Georgia. "

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Old 10-12-2009, 09:29 AM   #40
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Update :
Chopkick was right that it is hard to fire a Federal employee. I'm now told that roughly 30 percent of the Federal Protective Officers initially failed the ICE Qualification Course and were temporarily removed from the work schedule until they qualified. They are not fired for failing the range.

Contract guards on some contracts are fired for failing the range test. On some contracts, they are sent for re-training and tested again...and again.

The latest rumor is that FPS may be taken away from ICE and the course of fire may be changed. Possible changes would be elimination of the 25 Yard stage and a return to the Transtar 2 target.

Inexperienced shooters continue to fail in large numbers. I suspect that the initial point shooting gets them into the habit of focusing their eyes on the target, so they continue to do so during the sighted stages instead of transitioning to the front sight.

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Last edited by Rentacop; 10-12-2009 at 01:15 PM.
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