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Old 07-28-2009, 12:58 AM   #21
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Robocop10mm, what is this course for, why would anyone what to do it, self abuse or what. You got my interest tell me more.

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Old 07-28-2009, 10:18 PM   #22
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Until 1991 we could not carry semi-auto pistols on duty in uniform. Off duty or in a plain clothes position OK. The brass was so afraid that the lowly troops could not handle anything but a wheelgun. They let us carry our choice of revolver (either the issue S&W M-66 or any other 4" S&W revolver, minimum .357 Mag).

When we had a changing of the guard, they decided they would let those of us that could perform to a higher level carry autos. I was in the first class. three days, 500-600 rounds of your own ammo, multiple targets, speed reloading, dummies to simulate malfunctions, etc. Now that revolvers are not allowed in uniform, semi-autos are in everyone's holsters. D/A autos from S&W, Beretta, HK, Glock, Sig, Ruger and Springfield XD's are approved for carry.

Until recently, single action autos (1911's) were not approved. Thanks to the help of the range master and training cadre, the Sheriff was convinced to allow the carry of these pistols if the officer could show proficiency, safety and ability with these guns. There are some folks that simply want to carry the coolest (and most expensive) gun available but cannot hit the broad side of a barn from inside the barn. The course was designed to keep the goobers from shooting their collective toes off and cover some of the liability if something were to happen. These are the same people that want to accessorize their sports cars even though they have no driving ability, jack up their 4 X 4's even though they never go off road and put every gadget known to man on their AR-15 but shoot 20 rounds a year because they can't afford ammo.

IMHO if you can't shoot 90% on a reasonably challenging course, you have no business carrying a gun as a part of your job.

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Old 07-29-2009, 04:06 AM   #23
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Beat me up if you must, but at 4', I'm more than likely going to be firing fists. That's only because any threat that gets THAT close can be had with a meat hammer more quickly than with a handgun.
I am a practitioner and proponent of Point-Shooting, but 4' means a knee to the thigh or groin while the hands go to the face/throat. The guy's inside your bubble and destroyable. "Terminate the encounter with a heel-stomp to the head".

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Old 07-29-2009, 05:52 PM   #24
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I shoot a similar course for my qualifications and to tell you the truth, I find it much easier than the old PPC 300 point course. I was dissapointed when we changed because I never quite got a perfect 300. The 250 course is easy to ace.

I understand the stress of your job being on the line, as I have seen it on several occasions. I too have witnessed people losing their jobs because they cannot qualify. Stress adds an extra mind-block when you are shooting for score. But I think about it in a different light: If that person cannot perform with their job on the line, how will they perform with a life on the line (mine in particular)?

In an age where Security Officers are more and more encountering armed confrontations, it is important that they are proficient with their firearms and have the mental fortitude to protect themselves and others under extreme stress.

This all being said, I have worked with the FPS Security Officers and have seen the poor training and treatment they receive from the agency. I feel for you in the way you are treated, and wish I knew the solution.

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Old 08-01-2009, 12:40 AM   #25
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Brother, I have no problem with the course. It is indicative of our evolution as Contract Security Officers in order to keep up with the fluidity of our environment. In these changing times our job is becoming increasingly more dangerous.
Your concerns regarding our course of fire are noted. Your shoots are dictated by the professionalism or lack thereof of your FPS officers. Both of my FPS Handlers have extensive Military and or Law Enforcement backgrounds. They are high speed and low drag. They don't expect the same from me, but do expect to count on me. The embarrassment a couple of weeks ago in DC was perpetrated by both FPS and the Contract Guards.
Actually the shoot changed when FPS became fully integrated into DHS/ICE. When they were still under GSA authority our shoot basically consisted of target practice.
The Holocaust Museum shooting should have been prevented. If the dead Security Officer that opened the door for the killer would have noticed and thought it odd that this guy was wearing a long coat in 80 degree weather he might still be alive. And as close as this guy was when he brought his long gun onto target, he would have been a prime candidate and valuable case study for the dreaded 1.5 yard drill!

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Considering the fact that the victim is the first one at the scene of a violent crime, I believe all law abiding citizens should be armed.

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Old 08-01-2009, 07:00 AM   #26
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Chopkick-
The GAO test of guards was unfair and a political stunt by Congress. [ EDIT ADDED ] GAO is the party that should be embarrassed for giving terrorists a recipe for havoc, simply to give Congressmen something to raise hell about for the cameras. There is no way you or I would ever spot the stuff GAO sneaked in ( I am trained on X-ray scanning equipment and have years of experience with it BTW ).

The Holocaust Museum guards do not deserve any second-guessing.
EDIT : ADDED Statement :
The "guy" in question was 88 years old, white and appeared crippled. D.C. is full of homeless and deranged old people who may wear coats in any weather. The killer did not exactly fit the profile of a threat. If the guard had refused him entry anyway, there is no way of knowing if that would have resolved the situation.

The guards at the Holocaust Museum are trained to be sensitive and courteous because of the emotional people they deal with there. Guards are not in Condition Red all the time and can't be. That is reality.

If the guard had spotted the rifle, the best thing to do would have been to grab it and disarm the assailant ( as was done by a Wackenhut guard at an airport ), not to draw and try a hip shot ( ALA the ICE Course ). If you draw to a drawn gun, chances are you both get shot. Bullets take time to have an effect sometimes and hip shooting in real life doesn't work as well as on the ICE Course.

Chopkick-
I wish you guys would stop looking at the guards for a second and look at the security managers who can't find there way to a men's room or know what to do when they get there.

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Old 08-01-2009, 07:24 AM   #27
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Update on ICE Course :
Recently, a guard fired three shots into the head instead of putting two in the chest as instructed. All 15 points was deducted from his score, causing him to flunk.

Another guard fired only 5 of 6 shots standing, knealt and fired 7 shots to make the requisite 12. He was reprimanded for firing one shot too many kneeling and when he protested, " count the ammo ", was removed from the range for arguing with the FPO.

Another guard was disqualified for extending his arm during the opening hip-shooting stage.
Still another guard reputedly dropped his gun and was disqualified, as was one who fired 3 shots when two were mandated.

On a humerous note, here is FPS's advice as printed in a security booklet given to Federal employees :
" Consider the implications of firearms in the home. Mace is a much preferred alternative. If you decide to include a firearm in your home security program, a shotgun is recommended. Be sure proper police permits are obtained and responsible family members are trained in firearm safety and use.
If a weapon is kept at the home, store and lock the unloaded weapon out of reach of children. Ammunition should be stored and locked separately. "

Finally, I have the tactical info I always wanted ! Thanks FPS ! (LOL)

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Old 08-01-2009, 08:03 PM   #28
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Brother, we get nothing like that from FPS. We appear to live in different geographical locations.
I look at the guards for the simple fact that we have a job that pays very good for the work we do. Our job requires that we carry a firearm. It is a tool of the trade and like anything else we are expected to be proficient with it. If you are on the range for whatever reason, especially to requalify, you had better demonstrate proficiency. We are givin specific orders during our course of fire and if we can't follow them, how can FPS expect you to carryout your post orders?
Regarding the set up by the GOA, you are right on that one. One of my FPS handlers who is active Air Force EOD said that he wouldn't even have been able to spot the components the way they were smuggled in. And this incident should have NEVER EVER found its way to the LAME STREAM MEDIA.
Your are absolutely right about the contract managers. They can't find their asses with both hands. I despise everything they stand for. We need to be federalized in order to do away with these minority contract companies and send these former parking lot guards who just show up to collect a check down the road.
Last but definitely not least, The reaction of the guards at the Holocaust Museum does need to be second guessed. Because, however they were trained, it didn't work for them. Believe me, the Miami/FBI and North Hollywood shootouts were second guessed and positive changes were definitely made.

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Considering the fact that the victim is the first one at the scene of a violent crime, I believe all law abiding citizens should be armed.

"Fast is fine, Accurate is final." - Wyatt Earp

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Old 08-02-2009, 03:14 AM   #29
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Chopkick-
Here is how the Holocaust Museum guards were trained : Johns, the guard who was murdered, had years of experience. He had to be commissioned as a D.C. Special Police Officer to be permitted to carry a gun ( The museum is not a Federal contract ). He had to take all training required by Wackenhut as well as D.C. Likewise, the two guards who stopped the assailant were SPOs but they were also former police officers ; one was a retired D.C. Police officer. We can assume they went through a lot of training.

These men, though attacked without warning, reacted quickly. Both fired on the assailant. They scored one effective hit out of 8 shots fired, with .38 revolvers. They did not hit innocent bystanders. They shouted at guests to escape.

Okay, lets start the second-guessing ! What went wrong ? Unlike our movie heroes, Johns did not react in time when a rifle was instantly fired into his chest. Unlike us range shooters, the two guards who fired, missed several times. Maybe their target was moving or maybe it is easier to shoot accurately when no one is shooting back or maybe there was cover blocking part of the target. We don't have all of the facts.

Lessons learned ? :

Guards cannot be expected to function as armed responders and courtesy specialists at the same time because it makes them vulnerable. The guards should have been provided with body armor. There should be a guy with a rifle up high in a bullet-resistant booth... Security managers mis-manage.

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Old 08-02-2009, 09:56 PM   #30
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First off, like you said, we don't have all the facts. So we CAN second guess until we do. Though it is tragic that this Whackenhut guard died, someone screwed up.
I am aware that they are refered to as special police because of their training but it is no different than we are in Ca. It's just a title. Here in Ca. all security officers are regulated by the Bureau of Security and Invetigation Services (BSIS). We have to posses a guard card and a permit for every weapon we carry on our job (firearm, Baton, etc.). We have to take a mandatory 8 hours of training a year from a BSIS instructor. And the guard card and firearms permit have to be renewed every two years. In order to renew the firearms permit, we need four live fire qualifications (one very six months).
And all of this has to be kept up aside from all of our FPS requirements.

If you think that a security officer needs to be a Courtesy Specialist, then someone needs to apply as a Wal-Mart Greeter. We can do our jobs in a courteous manner and still perform our primary function. We have Post Orders that dictate our job. Not some bureaucrat in a Social Security Office who spends most of his days locked up in his office.

Yes, the officers should have had body armor. If the company doesn't provide it then the officer needs to decide whether he should purchase his own. I know what my life is worth and I wear mine everyday I'm on post. I'm surprised that the two "FORMER POLICE OFFICERS" didn't have their own.

And you don't need to have a guard in a bullet proof booth perched high above everyone, weilding a mini-14. You utilize your cameras and have radio contact with your Security Officers.

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Considering the fact that the victim is the first one at the scene of a violent crime, I believe all law abiding citizens should be armed.

"Fast is fine, Accurate is final." - Wyatt Earp

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